Banjo-Kazooie 4 suggestions

[Tanjo]

With Banjo-Kazooie 4[Possibly maybe might be] now in the "drawing board" stages, and with the opinions of the fans, I figured we could throw in some ideas for Rare like we did with N&B. Only now, we have a better idea of what the next game will be like. So, post some suggestions, requests, and concerns in this thread for Rare to skim over and get some ideas for the sequel.

[Nintendawg]

Don't make showdown town (or the new hub world) sound 40x bigger than it is. It was a big area, and yes I enjoyed driving around in it, but the town wasn't nearly as ginormous as most people said it was.
Return Jamjars and all the other characters that we missed in this game :D
Mumbo as a playable character again.
Transformations..
Basically the stuff that didn't necessarily need doing away with in NaB.
I'm fine with the vehicles. Have parts let you access areas of a level otherwise inaccessible by moves.
For example, you can't get to the top of a mountain using the flight pad due to a lack of feathers, but you find an extra fuel and engine for a plane to fly up there for you. Stuff like that.
And as a final thought, why not scatter hidden parts around without the crates like we saw in the beta trailers.. Like random parts you can latch onto your vehicle just randomly laying around. :D
I hope Rare will take up some of the ideas people get.

[Shiner]

I've got plenty of suggestions, but a few stand out more than others:

I would like:

1) Vibrant, colourful worlds. I want worlds that feel full-of-life like Click Clock Wood or Hailfire Peaks. Even Showdown Town was quite a vivacious location. So yeah, that's the first thing... none of the artificial worlds LOG created. I understand the rationale, but the artificial-nature made the (otherwise decent) worlds less memorable and less enjoyable. I was really dissappointed with the artificial nature of the levels. When I heard "Nutty Acres" immediately images of the lush Click Clock Wood came into my head... for me, seeing the reality made me slightly gloomy for a moment.

2) Better designed levels. Levels that are more fun to explore. In BK and BT there was always a thrill from exploring new areas. That was one of the best parts of the game. Sadly that thrill is mostly missing from N&B as the levels are pretty open-ended to accomodate the vehicles. Nutty Acres had hints of the classic exploration what with the volcano and the nice beach areas, and Showdown Town was also quite fun to explore. There was even a slight thrill in finding the new areas in BanjoLand. But LogBox? It just didn't really feel all that special, and was pretty cluttered tbh.

3) Better use of the characters. I didn't mind the actors thing (although personally I didn't really like it either), but it felt like the same characters were being used over and over. A bit variety next time along with new characters would be nice.

4) BIGGER TEXT! Please...

And of course, "the big one"...

5) I'm not sure how you plan to approach the next game. I don't know whether the vehicles are going to make a return or not. But please, whatever you do, put more focus on the traditional platforming. Those were the most fun moments in N&B ironically, the bits that nearly gave you that "classic" Banjo feel. Banjo and Kazooie need their moves. It's what helps define them. Vehicles feel like clunky replacements to a degree. Poor Kazooie was pretty much useless in the game.

The game was (presumably) called Banjo-Kazooie because the duo work together, using each other's abilities. So certainly in the next game, my biggest hope is that those abilities will be making a return. Maybe not everything from BK and BT, some new abilities would be nice. But certainly the core mechanic of Banjo and Kazooie working together should not be forgotten.

As for the game itself, I personally would love to see a platformer. I mean, the LOG challenge is over now, so I'm willing to accept N&B as a well-made, yet not exceptional one-off. Banjo has never been about vehicles, the novelty has worn off. And while there may well be a segment of fans who believe vehicles are the way to go, I believe there is an even bigger segment of fans who want true platforming to make a comeback.

Anyway, those are my main suggestions.

[danielreece2]

...BK4 is in "drawing board" stages?

...so there WILL be a BK4?

...or is that just a good way to start out your thread?

[runehero123]

Worlds that take place in the actual Banjo universe, and not Log's made up worlds would be nice.

[ConkerTribe]

I understand the rationale, but the artificial-nature made the (otherwise decent) worlds less memorable and less enjoyable. I was really dissappointed with the artificial nature of the levels. When I heard "Nutty Acres" immediately images of the lush Click Clock Wood came into my head... for me, seeing the reality made me slightly gloomy for a moment.
I know exactly what you mean. There was just a certain strangeness to the worlds, mostly Nutty Acres, where it lacked a central theme. It seemed like an island, but then had influences of quite hilly places... like Georgia. I dunno. 'Just seemed weird to me. Especially considering that these places were supposed to seem fake. I think more luscious levels, like those found in Kameo or Conker would suit Banjo more. It just perpetuates that Banjo magic that we all know and love. It's that MIXED with the mechanical, industrial theme that really bring Banjo's world to life, in my opinion.

2) Better designed levels. Levels that are more fun to explore. In BK and BT there was always a thrill from exploring new areas. That was one of the best parts of the game. Sadly that thrill is mostly missing from N&B as the levels are pretty open-ended to accomodate the vehicles. Nutty Acres had hints of the classic exploration what with the volcano and the nice beach areas, and Showdown Town was also quite fun to explore. There was even a slight thrill in finding the new areas in BanjoLand. But LogBox? It just didn't really feel all that special, and was pretty cluttered tbh.
I believe I would call it a visual assault, but yes, the "loud" appearance of LogBox made it hard to really get attached to it or even realize the inside-a-game-machine experience because it lacked an iconic structure. It all seemed a bit TOO realistic for my tastes, and I just felt overwhelmed by all the stuff in that world; the chips and circuits and plugs and all that... and for what reason? You could move ALL that stuff... but I haven't found a use for them yet. They're just... there.

The same goes for all the enemies. They're too simplistic. I don't like them. Just balls with mouths on them. I don't like the designs, to be honest. I think more anthropomorphic enemies would be a better match for Banjo. If you're going to make them machines, then make them like mechanical Grublins or something. That would also be a nice little homage!

I will just say that I hated all the enemies in the game and felt in no way attached to any of them. I hate the cows. I hate the roach... things... I hate those Gruntbot things... I just hate it all. HATE.

3) Better use of the characters. I didn't mind the actors thing (although personally I didn't really like it either), but it felt like the same characters were being used over and over. A bit variety next time along with new characters would be nice.
Yeah, the same goes for me. I mean, I got what you guys were trying to do with those cheesy intros, and yes, some of them made me chuckle a bit ("Pikelet: The coach with something to prove." Classic.). But I also didn't get the references to early TV shows. Maybe you should make the parodies more up-to-date so we, ya know, actually GET them.

And yes, if each world had different characters in them, they'd all feel more special and more designated to one place, like they actually lived there. As of now, the characters seem to have multiple homes that they go to and just change identities at will. It all seemed like some big inside joke that I didn't get when they all tried to "act" in the worlds that they were in. I think if you made characters specifically for those worlds instead of placing the main characters in those roles, they would seem a lot more special. :)

4) BIGGER TEXT! Please...
Seconded.

5) I'm not sure how you plan to approach the next game. I don't know whether the vehicles are going to make a return or not. But please, whatever you do, put more focus on the traditional platforming. Those were the most fun moments in N&B ironically, the bits that nearly gave you that "classic" Banjo feel. Banjo and Kazooie need their moves. It's what helps define them. Vehicles feel like clunky replacements to a degree. Poor Kazooie was pretty much useless in the game.

The game was (presumably) called Banjo-Kazooie because the duo work together, using each other's abilities. So certainly in the next game, my biggest hope is that those abilities will be making a return. Maybe not everything from BK and BT, some new abilities would be nice. But certainly the core mechanic of Banjo and Kazooie working together should not be forgotten.
Totally agree with you there. I'm not sure what their process for making this game was, but I can pretty much guarantee that with more time of development, they would have eventually figured out that Mumbo would be more suited to controlling things with his staff than Kazooie having to control stuff with her wing. HER WING... But yeah, please, just have Mumbo do all the Nuts n' Bolts stuff next time and give Banjo and Kazooie back their moves.

I also felt like the traditional platforming parts, even the unintended ones were a real rush (like climbing Klungo's Arcade... It's not possible to climb the whole way, at least in my experience). I just wish it was more solid and varied, like it used to be...

As for the game itself, I personally would love to see a platformer. I mean, the LOG challenge is over now, so I'm willing to accept N&B as a well-made, yet not exceptional one-off. Banjo has never been about vehicles, the novelty has worn off. And while there may well be a segment of fans who believe vehicles are the way to go, I believe there is an even bigger segment of fans who want true platforming to make a comeback
Bravo. 'Couldn't have said it any better myself.

Now for my own personal suggestions:

1) I know this is a bit of a niggling request, and now that Grant Kirkhope is gone, it'll be hard to really recreate the musical magic of the old games... but I felt like the music in Nuts n' Bolts ripped off the old games far too much. There were few instances where I felt a level or circumstance had a unique and catchy theme to it all its own without any influence from other games/levels.

It was interesting, no doubt, to hear the Jinjo Village theme in Showdown Town. It was interesting to hear some Mad Monster Mansion in LogBox (don't even feign ignorance on this one)... but that's just what Nuts n' Bolts is full of: Interesting bits. They're not anything anyone asked for and they're just sort of... strange. Everything about the game is somewhat strange, from the characters down to the landscapes.

I will say this, though, and it's the most random thing to like, but I think the Queen of the Knoll and LOG's Showdown Town theme are awesome tracks. Then again, this is coming from the person whose favorite tracks are the Wonder Wing and Grunty's Furnace Fun, so really it's mainly just a variation on the Banjo theme that I love, I guess.

2) If there's a character in the world, I want them to be there for a reason, not just for filler city characters. For instance, I hated those pigs, penguins and rhinos in Showdown Town. They had absolutely no bearing on the story at all and were just... FILLER! GAH! Every Banjo character is supposed to be somewhat special! You're breaking all the rules, Rare!

*Breathes*
Okay... I'm calm...

3) Physics. Banjo's world is supposed to be more cartoony in the physics department, whereas in Nuts n' Bolts the physics seem like something out of Half-Life 2. I mean, yeah, it was interesting, but like I said before, it doesn't perpetuate that feeling of "Banjo." Things should be more bouncy if you're going to make things have weight... Just sort of evaluate how you guys dealt with the past Banjo games and just... make it that way. Kay, thanks.

4) I liked how in Banjo-Tooie the worlds were interconnected. I realize that would have been impossible with Nuts n' Bolts, considering they were all digital worlds...or whatever... but I think that was another mistake as well; not having the worlds reside in Banjo's world. It was an interesting idea... and, yeah, you already know where I'm going with this... It really does take all the magic and that feeling of familiarity out of the game. I really felt like I was in some strange place that had nothing to do with Banjo at all. Please, Rare... don't make me feel that way again.

5) Bring back all the characters from the past games. Yup. That's all. Just do that, please? And if you're going to create new characters, please make them likable and have personalities help perpetuate that Banjo essence, not Piddles (useless) and Trophy Thomas (resident blowhard? Really, Rare? That's the best you could do?)... And if you're going to bring back past characters--and this is key--DON'T ZAP THE CHARACTER OF ALL THE PERSONALITY THEY ONCE HAD BY MAKING ANOTHER CHARACTER ANNOUNCE THEIR INTENTIONS, i.e. Humba and Mr. Patch.

6) More worlds. I want more worlds, darn it. And make them more "classic" like what we're used to, but give a unique spin on it like with your past games. Grunty Industries gave a unique spin on the factory level. Hail-Fire Peaks with the snow and fire level. Jolly Roger Lagoon with the water level. Etc. Come on, Rare. More personality. That's what you're supposed to be good at when you're not too busy trying to reinvent the wheel... or decide the wheel isn't good enough and turn it into a spinning gear with hover capabilities.

7) Smaller worlds. The larger worlds were to accommodate the vehicles, so the worlds should get smaller if Banjo and Kazooie are going to go it alone this time. Smaller, but not small. Please don't misunderstand that point. I liked the size of Banjo-Tooie's levels, but if you're going to make the worlds large, I would suggest making them traversable in a reasonable time frame.

[harrison09]

Make the next game an original platformer with no vehicles :D

[Bottles98]

More exploration. More characters (old AND new).
That's about it.

[BurstingFurball]

I honestly just played N&B and I thought I wasn't playing a Banjo Kazooie game, it just wasn't the same, i tried playing half the game out of the vehicle cuz i wanted it to be like the old games lol, I didn't mind the art style but I also wouldn't mind if they switched back to the old art style, I miss all the characters that you had to help out in the old game or that helped you, and.....

if grunty loses klungo she needs a new minion
like a stupid one lol
thats just needed

[Shiner]

1) I know this is a bit of a niggling request, and now that Grant Kirkhope is gone, it'll be hard to really recreate the musical magic of the old games... but I felt like the music in Nuts n' Bolts ripped off the old games far too much. There were few instances where I felt a level or circumstance had a unique and catchy theme to it all its own without any influence from other games/levels.

Yes, I totally understand that.

Nuts & Bolts' music was good, there's no doubt about that. But yeah, I didn't really think that Nuts & Bolts had many memorable musical themes that it can truly call its own. Some of the songs just felt like quotes from old songs with a bit of padding thrown in. Not saying they weren't nice to listen to, far from, but more original tunes would be nice next time.

Also, more of the awesome area-to-area tune switching would be nice. I know it's difficult to do with ochestrations but it was brilliant to hear it being done in Showdown Town, and I just wish other levels in the game had that as well.

If there's a character in the world, I want them to be there for a reason, not just for filler city characters. For instance, I hated those pigs, penguins and rhinos in Showdown Town. They had absolutely no bearing on the story at all and were just... FILLER! GAH! Every Banjo character is supposed to be somewhat special! You're breaking all the rules, Rare!

I have to agree there as well. Rare make memorable characters, the random aimless ones with no purpose were a bit annoying to be honest. I'm so used to every character having something unique to say.

Smaller worlds. The larger worlds were to accommodate the vehicles, so the worlds should get smaller if Banjo and Kazooie are going to go it alone this time. Smaller, but not small. Please don't misunderstand that point. I liked the size of Banjo-Tooie's levels, but if you're going to make the worlds large, I would suggest making them traversable in a reasonable time frame.

This is a tough one for me. I would personally love to see levels inbetween the size of the ones offered in BK and BT. I loved BK's levels because everything was nice and compact, making them perfect for pure platforming. However I also loved the exploration element offered in BT.

So yeah, reasonable size levels.

[danielreece2]

i actually like BKN&B but i the only probelm with it is that instead of getting rewarded by exploring the levels and finding secrets, you just have to do more challenges...

i think Jinjos should be like they used to be (find them, keep them) rather than when you find a Jinjo you have to race it or some ****...

and there should have been at least SOME jiggys that were just laying around in secret areas and stuff, rather than every one being in a challenge.

as for BK4 i wouldnt mind seeing the same art style and N&B and the levels should be nice and big (smaller than N&B though to compensate for how much slower walking is than driving).

my Main erk was that Kazooie NEEDS to have moves. without moves like the originals the game just isnt the same.

Also the hub world should be more divided. in N&B its just one big place, unlike Gruntys Lair, or Ilse o' Hags, which have seperate sections. it makes it feel bigger and grander even if it isnt.

i wouldnt even have minded the vehicles in N&B if that wasnt like 100% of the game...
vehicles are fun, but i think that should have been a minor part, that showed up in a few challenges and boss fights, rather than the whole game.

[SnsSeeker13]

1. More exploring.
2. Non-manufactured worlds.
3. No vehicles. It was a nice concept, but I think you've done pretty much everything you can with them.
4. Actually give us the answer to Stop 'N' Swop.
5. Don't take longer than 5 years.

[ConkerTribe]

i actually like BKN&B but i the only probelm with it is that instead of getting rewarded by exploring the levels and finding secrets, you just have to do more challenges...
Yeah, I think that shows that Rare has lost sight of what made Banjo so interesting to begin with. Generally, the "challenges" Banjo used to offer felt a lot more natural and involved, and didn't necessarily have a definite beginning and end. You kind of just did things naturally... which lead to other things... which caused a compounding ripple effect... which usually netted you the Jiggy.

Take, for example, Mayahem Temple in Banjo-Tooie. You got a glowbo > You went to Mumbo's > You took Mumbo out > You approached the Golden Goliath statue > You cast your spell > You took the Golden Goliath out > You went inside those huge stone doors and collected the Jiggy (2 bonus points goes to the person who also kicked in the cheat room doors afterwards).

I definitely think the next game should take on a more natural feel in the way you approach Jiggy tasks.

Another thing that was missing, as you said, was mystery. Sometimes you'd see a Jiggy behind a panel of unbreakable ice/crystal. That's like foreshadowing in storytelling. That is priceless and brilliant, two things I think Rare gave up in Nuts n' Bolts. It also entices the player, teasing them to keep playing to see how to get to that Jiggy. It's simply one of the most important aspects that few people actually recognize.

Sometimes it wasn't even part of the gameplay, but rather part of the narrative of the story (deeper than you think). In Banjo-Tooie (it's been so long since I've played, please excuse my poor memory), you took Scrotty from Witchy World on the train that stopped at almost every world in the game, connecting all of them together in a wonderful way. You took her home, then Scrit or Scrat or whatever got sick, you had to take him on the train, take him to the Isle O' Hags to get Mumbo to make him feel better... or get enlarged... or whatever.

The point is, objectives happened more naturally, which I think added a lot to the narrative of the game, telling an even more complex story than all the cutscenes in the game.

I hope if Rare is reading this, a little light bulb is going off above their heads.

Also the hub world should be more divided. in N&B its just one big place, unlike Gruntys Lair, or Ilse o' Hags, which have seperate sections. it makes it feel bigger and grander even if it isnt.
You make a good point. I definitely think it adds more to the game to have an expanding path that opens up slowly as you progress through the game, eventually leading up to the final showdown with Grunty.

That's another thing: The overexposing of Grunty. She just became this prop in the world. You could even hit her with your car. Always available, never scary, not like she once was. I suppose this was because she's such a huge joke now, only a head and nobody left to help her out anymore... I just think this was a mistake. I think Grunty should be the scariest part of the game, being that she is the ultimate boss in the game (or she should have been, not just the last challenge in a world).

People fail to recognize this, but it's not just Kazooie who's been gimped--Grunty's magic has been taken away, too. Grunty is nothing without her magic.
i wouldnt even have minded the vehicles in N&B if that wasnt like 100% of the game...
vehicles are fun, but i think that should have been a minor part, that showed up in a few challenges and boss fights, rather than the whole game.
I think they seriously would have to have gimped the whole aspect of it then, because it's seriously too big as it is right now. It needed its own game... I just don't know why it had to be a Banjo game. It could have been Conker and it would have made just as much sense.
5. Don't take longer than 5 years.
Mmhmmm, Hallelujah.

Rare, I'll give you two years. That's by next, next Fall. Don't let me down.

[NeoConker]

Well, I don't know what to say.

Vehicles were fun, and it somewhat fit into the game, but I long for the days of epic squack matches and bastardly hard bosses which always needed you to use a cheat to beat, or collect EVERY SINGLE EMPTY HONEYCOMB IN THE GAME. Fights that seemed impossible like the duel with the HAG 01 were big points in my child hood. Also, return the old Jinjo and charector sounds, or something similar. Jinjo's no longer say "help" or scream "JINJO" when they are saved.

As far as artwork is considered, I did like the new art style, it felt fresh and good. But the mechanical worlds weren't that appealing, the environment I felt did the best job of art design is definatly Banjo Land. As for Stop N' Swap, I do understand what we got in N&B was the equivalent of what we would have got in BT if SnS was there, but fans won't shut up until you give them something a bit... more, taking into consideration it was a full 10 years afterwords.

This game was the platformer in your catalog of games back in the day, you had Diddy Kong covering Racing, Goldeneye and Perfect Dark as the shooters, Conker as your reputation changing platformer for adults, and Banjo as the game that was just plain fun platforming with good challenges and appealed to all gamers, hell, if it didn't, you wouldn't have this site filled with people who are mostly over 13, some over 18, who still love this game series. And you need to return the series to it's roots, most would consider N&B a spin off for the most part.

[Deebs]

Worlds that take place in the actual Banjo universe, and not Log's made up worlds would be nice.

Thank you.

;)

[Tanjo]

I'm sure Rare is fully aware of my constructive criticism by now, and there are some incredibly good points made and to be made in this thread. All I can say is to compare N&B to New Coke. It was overhyped way too much as the ultimate and superior replacement to old platforming, and in the end alot of people just want Old Coke back. Not New Coke with Old Coke poured in, just give us Old Coke.

Yes, you spent a long time working on the vehicles, but just because effort was put into them doesn't mean that everyone will wind up liking it in the end. The general public may have somewhat accepted it, but that's because they were told to. A major problem I have with them is that they're being labled as the final change for BK. They're staying. The feeling that I'm never going to get to play a Banjo game like BK and BT again is a disturbing, uncomfortable and depressing one, which is why I want it back.

[Shiner]

I'm sure Rare is fully aware of my constructive criticism by now, and there are some incredibly good points made and to be made in this thread. All I can say is to compare N&B to New Coke. It was overhyped way too much as the ultimate and superior replacement to old platforming, and in the end alot of people just want Old Coke back. Not New Coke with Old Coke poured in, just give us Old Coke.


Brilliant analogy. :approve:

Yes, you spent a long time working on the vehicles, but just because effort was put into them doesn't mean that everyone will wind up liking it in the end. The general public may have somewhat accepted it, but that's because they were told to. A major problem I have with them is that they're being labled as the final change for BK. They're staying. The feeling that I'm never going to get to play a Banjo game like BK and BT again is a disturbing, uncomfortable and depressing one, which is why I want it back.

I have to agree.

We enjoyed the vehicles to a degree, but they're done with. I think at least 65% of the fanbase (that's a conservative estimate) want a return to platforming or at the very least more platforming. Even new fans after playing BK and BT on XBLA may find themselves preferring the old style.

So yes, let's have as many people contribute ideas on this thread as possible.

[ConkerTribe]

I have a feeling they're going to listen this time. This thread gives me hope.

I request a sticky.

[wkw427]

Make jinjos wander around the world, hiding from you, like they were supposed to be a "hard to find collectable"!!!

[Drihscol]

I am a nintendo fanboy. have been ever since i was two. i remember the christmas of 1998, my parents surprised us with an n64. the first game i ever played was banjo kazooie. with nothing to do for 2 years, i played banjo kazooie, nonstop. i got a wii at launch, and modded it for my birthday, last year. but all i wanted to do was play banjo kazooie. so for christmas, i got a 360 pro and banjo kazooie. and i took kazooie back on boxing day. the only thing that i actualy liked about the game, was the test drive area, and the music. the rest has to go. the graphics style, its like the scaled up banjo, and smoothed the edges. and klungo was sown together! the trees are sown fabrics on sticks! the original banjo kazooie was lifelike, to the limitations of the n64. just put the game back the way it was. i dont even want to discuss the gameplay *shudders*. try to make the game longer, bring the moves back, and the separation of banjo and kazooie was briliant. what i liked, was in tooie, in hailfire peaks, in a sewage pipe, they showed a jiggy which you get at the very end of the game behind glass, it kept me going, and the puzzles, were brilliant, and cruel, but BRILLIANT!!!!! try to extend the gameplay but not by sticking in say, a conversation quest. more jiggies, but put the notes back to narmal, but mabye put in the note nests again.

[Tanjo]

There should be more googly eyes.

[Razorsaw]

Okay, so, first post. Great to be here.

So, I have some opinions, responses to other people's points... yadda yadda yadda. I'll get started.

I think, to start things off, to talk about where I think Banjo should go, I should talk about what I think about where it's been. Specifically, with Nuts and Bolts.

I can understand a lot of what Rare tried to do with this game. For one, the platformer genre, especially on the X-Box, is in a bit of a snag. What's more, user generated content and multiplayer, two big things that have cropped up in this generation, are very difficult to work with in the context of the general platformer. What's more, concepts like leaderboards and other on-line interaction are easier to do with individual challenges and objectives, rather than open ended worlds. Banjo had to change its structure in order to accommodate the change in objective; this isn't new. Back in the day, Mario changed itself from being "get from point A to point B, boss every now and then" to "multiple worlds with different objectives to be met." Of course, Banjo went to a sort of larger shift in GENRE, so it's not quite the same.

I digress. Now, there were plenty of reasons why Rare did this; again, the aforementioned "platformers aren't exactly big anymore." Really - it shows. Mario manages to do well, but that's because Mario is an established, recognized brand name that's synonymous with the currently highest selling console. Banjo is... a game from eight years ago that sadly, general audiences either don't remember or haven't heard of. It has a wonderful and dedicated fanbase, but... those numbers aren't logically enough to cover development costs and to turn a profit. This sort of thing happens with every fandom; I'm big on Transformers, and the developers of the toyline there have consistently made a big deal about how they have to put appeal to kids (read, the general audience) over the needs of the fandom, because the fandom represents, at best, a couple hundred out of the actual numbers that buy/need to buy the game for their product to be successful. These dynamics are true across the board for just about all consumer products that involve entertainment.

That said, Rare... had to take a risk. The risk was reinventing Banjo from the ground up with a concept that might fly, or crossing their fingers on his fading reputation and gambling that a platformer would take off again. That said, when Rare "bashes" the past gameplay, it strikes me as being their usual tongue in cheek banter; really, they mockingly take the piss out of their reinvention just as much. So, really... I don't think any love is lost about their past work, nor are they really arrogant about what's new.

Okay, that said... characters and level design. On the subject of level design. Hrm. I'm not sure I fully agree with what was said earlier. In replaying B&K on X-Box Live recently, the levels felt more like rooms in a building than worlds. Mumbo is in every one of them - a less pronounced precursor to his and other characters' having different roles in the N&B worlds - everything is fenced in by walls, so on, so forth. They seemed less like tangible realities and more like specialized pockets inside Grunty's lair. I mean, Click Clock Woods' seasons are linked by doors; time is spent as an abstract, varied, and manipulable thing that makes Banjo seem like an outsider inside of it. Tooie from what I recall avoided this somewhat by making everything bigger and making things interconnected, but they were still somewhat contained by the "meet requirements for the door and go into it," and Mumbo and Humba still had the peculiar ability to transcend reality and exist in multiple places at once. Maybe they didn't look constructed, but they didn't seem real. They quite literally felt like levels, contained and suiting a particular purpose. All Nuts and Bolts really did was abandon the pretense.

The cast of characters thing is... really a mixed bag. On one hand, I like big casts, on the other... I'm not really going to be upset if I don't get to see the likes of Congo and Nabnut again. N&B reduced itself to its most memorable; and in some cases, de-genericized the likes of Boggy, Mr. Fit, and Jolly. I don't think their "performances" are any less memorable, as all of the various roles are shaped by their personalities; Trophy Thomas is all about competition, One is framed around Boggy's lethargy, Bottles is either written as an instructor or fussy leader, or or in a manner that preys on his long struggle with karma and insecurity; so on, so forth. And I don't really agree with most of the references being dated... Nutty Acres may be, but it's archetypes are common enough, and as for Jiggoseum, well... they still make sports movies. Logbox is nothing BUT current, and at times, I think it might be too MUCH so - the jokes about gaming girls and Humba are derived from internet pop culture and webcomics, which makes them a bit too exclusive.

That said, broader casts wouldn't hurt, and I think that while what they did in this game is perfectly alright, they could expand the roster to satisfy people who want to see more. It's pretty harmless either way.

I am however, agreed on enemies. The ones in N&B tend to run together too much on account of coming at you too quickly. They also tend to disappear and/or become avoidable as you start to get better at challenges.

(post too long, see next reply)

[Razorsaw]

Now... I've talked a lot about what other people have said, and a lot about Rare's motives. Not so much about what I would do with the sequals. This is because... well, I'm going to try and look at it from Rare's perspective and think about what they might do and how to work with it, and also how to justify it. In summation of what I was saying, I don't think it's so much that Rare has forgotten or don't care about past aspects of Banjo; it's just that at some point, when you're working with a new situation, something's got to give.

Now, finally, here are my ideas.

First off, to justify certain conventions, I'll start with my premise for the story:

Inside L.O.G.'s factory, the Lord of Games himself comes to check up on his latest employee. Gruntilda gives him a rather tongue in cheek, cheery disposition sort of attitude to try and make it seem like she's hard working and loyal... which L.O.G. is fully aware of, and unconvinced by. Eventually, however, she manages to usurp L.O.G.'s powers (complete with a "curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!") and uses them to transform the entire world (Spiral Mountain included) into her own miniature empire. L.O.G. however uses the last of his powers to save Banjo and Kazooie from Gruntilda's revenge, and stays with them in his depowered state to allow them to work against Gruntilda and attempt to put back what once went wrong. For the majority of this game, L.O.G. is given the undignified new moniker of F.L.O.G. ("Fallen Lord of Games"), and he sorts of takes on the role of Charlie to Banjo and Kazooie's Angels - he's mission control basically.

Other story elements would be the various casts' new roles in this; Pikelet would side with Grunty as one of her enforcers and peace keepers, and become a recurring boss in the vein of Klungo, until he's eventually bribed and convinced to side with the heroes. As for everyone's favorite former subordinate, Klungo I imagine as the Q to Banjo and Kazooie's James Bond, providing them with assistance and various gadgets and such. Other characters I haven't determined yet or would have taken refuge in the new environments Grunty has created.

That said, everyone wants platforming, and there's several ways they could work it out. My first idea will be a variable mix; essentially, part platforming and part vehicle gameplay. Platforming would be restricted to the main hub world, and as you progress, this world will open up more and more, leading to new puzzles to solve. This is where moves would be found, doors to new worlds; basically, no more town trolley. The classic Banjo style would be embodied in a single, ever expanding, and yet still broad world that requires you to master individual abilities and solve puzzles. The hub would also contain a mission control, where you deposit Jiggies and potentially solve further puzzles to gain access to new worlds, and also get hints and instructions for where to progress further, and also to build new vehicles and such with Klungo's assistance. One thing I'd drop is the absolutely REDUNDANT and redonkulous moving around and depositing items in places; one you get something, it's added to your inventory. This is the one thing that I'm legitimately critical of Nuts and Bolts about.

As for the vehicular side of things; my ideas here are rather ambitious, as it'd mix the premade, obtainable parts with "materials." In other words, it'd make things infinitely more customizable. You'd use materials to create more parts the way you want them; say you had "rubber material", "steel material", and "durable material" - you'd have the option of creating either a normal wheel, a wheel designed for off road, or a wheel that has SPIKES on it. It'd get more complex than that, of course, but the sky's the limit.

As for the gameworlds... the rest of Banjo's friends would be in the hub, working under Grunty and either providing magic or some other manner of assistance to help Banjo get into various worlds. However, in the gameworlds, you're playing in GRUNTY'S territory, and everyone you meet there would either be her underlings, or subjected to her rule. One idea I have is that a disgruntled Gobi would return as one of Gruntilda's underlings, and part of a challenge involving him would be to battle his vehicle and in the proccess, use the water stored in it to accomplish a secondary goal; effectively reimagining Gobi's plight in a new context. And of course, he'd learn the error of his ways; just, after all they've done to him, I'd imagine that he'd want some payback, even if it meant siding with the lady who captured him once.

Vehicle challenges would be a mixture of the existing races and errand quests, and more specialized ones. The aforementioned Gobi idea is just one example. And races would have more conditions and imaginative concepts, as well as more specialized hazards. And of course, bosses would come back in an expanded role, with further emphasis on developing vehicles suited to them, instead of patterning the bosses around an existing vehicle type. Perhaps a rematch with Targitzan that pits his sharpshooting against yours, and a battle with Terry's meaner cousin that has an emphasis on dodging and ground to air shooting. I also have vague idea for a boss where the key to victory is mastering the use of springs.

The co-op and leaderboard rankings and trading would mostly stay the same.

My second idea returns to a platforming idea entirely - but to accommodate for the change in demographic and need for a multi-player experience, there'd be some significant changes. One; the open endedness of worlds would be taken out, and you'd have a "Get Jiggy by Jiggy" style of going into and returning to worlds like the various Mario platformers. This would allow for the presence of leaderboard rankings because you complete a different Jiggy's challenge in a certain amount of time.

Now, co-op. You need co-op. Thankfully, Banjo Kazooie's concept is pretty favorable to co-op. Now, I don't mean one player controls Banjo and one player controls Kazooie; that'd kill the single player entirely. Mind you, there'd still be split up sections like in Tooie, where Banjo and Kazooie would split up and work together; in single player, the other character would be controlled by an AI that's... serviceable, but largely better and more conducive to doing well if you have a second guy helping you. You'd also be able to collect transformations and items that are exclusive to Banjo and Kazooie that enhance each character's abilities in addition to their various moves.

My third idea is... the 2nd idea, with an attempt to salvage the idea of user generated content. Building would return... but instead of vehicles. it'd be customizable weapons and tools, with certain categories exclusive to Banjo and Kazooie. Banjo, for instance, would get stuff that's patterned around enhancing his ability to fight hand to hand, and Kazooie, wing packs and drills and guns and whatnot. And you'd be able to put them together however you want to. This would allow for multi-player competitive play, and of course, be Banjo "styled" - One of Kazooie's potential construction items would be called "the Bill Drill", and with it, you'd either be able to make an actual drill, or a projectile item that SHOOTS them.

And of course, they'd make a joke referencing Ratchet and Clank.

*insert mandatory Gurren Lagann reference here*

Ha ha, that got really long. Join me next time when I discuss my ideas for potential worlds.

[Tanjo]

Oh my god, no. Not happening. I'm not reading all that. The first post was not necessary, either. This thread is for desperate fans to beg Rare to give us some fanservice. Not for a wall of text trying to rationalize everything Rare does.

[Shiner]

Razorsaw, you made a few good points, but there are some I'd question:

In replaying B&K on X-Box Live recently, the levels felt more like rooms in a building than worlds. Mumbo is in every one of them - a less pronounced precursor to his and other characters' having different roles in the N&B worlds - everything is fenced in by walls, so on, so forth. They seemed less like tangible realities and more like specialized pockets inside Grunty's lair. I mean, Click Clock Woods' seasons are linked by doors; time is spent as an abstract, varied, and manipulable thing that makes Banjo seem like an outsider inside of it. Tooie from what I recall avoided this somewhat by making everything bigger and making things interconnected, but they were still somewhat contained by the "meet requirements for the door and go into it," and Mumbo and Humba still had the peculiar ability to transcend reality and exist in multiple places at once. Maybe they didn't look constructed, but they didn't seem real. They quite literally felt like levels, contained and suiting a particular purpose. All Nuts and Bolts really did was abandon the pretense.

I disagree with this. Banjo Kazooie may have taken place in "levels", but these "levels" felt like real places, particularly in Banjo Tooie. Yes, the locations were all set up for platforming. Yes it was obvious they were simply game worlds. But there was so much to look at, so much to explore, the aesthetics, the wonder, the enchantment, the charm. That's what made the levels appealing.

All of that is missing in N&B, the artificialness of each of the levels only serves to make the locations dull and lifeless. The levels may have abadoned a so-called pretense, but they also abandoned their heart and soul and aren't very satisfying places to play in.

Mario Galaxy is made up of levels you just fly to too, yet each of the locations feels like a real place. Same with the previous Banjo games. And as for Mumbo and Wumba being in multiple locations. What harm? It wasn't as if you were ever in two levels at once.

The cast of characters thing is... really a mixed bag. On one hand, I like big casts, on the other... I'm not really going to be upset if I don't get to see the likes of Congo and Nabnut again.

A wide cast of interesting characters was a staple of the Banjo franchise. A lot of dedicated fans would have been expecting to see them in some shape or form.

It's not just the lack of characters, it's what several characters were reduced to. What about George and Mildred suddenly becoming mutes, and Clanker for that matter or Big Al being reduced to a burger packet. That kind of stuff matters to fans of the series.

I agreed with your point about co-op. There should be co-op platforming challenges making up perhaps 10% to 20% of the single-player game. That would be a good way of appealing to Xbox 360 gamers without a radical overhaul. Platforming challenges and leaderboards for specific jiggy challenges could be used.

Tbh, if Rare had used the same game structure (challenges, world doors etc.) but combined it with platforming and some co-op, they could have created a great game that more people would've liked.

[IronCrue34]

How about some decent characters?

[Tanjo]

Relevant to levels.

[mattdraw92]

T.T.

I gotta say though. They also wanted to produce a new experience that would work with online play as well... The old platformers were not adapted for todays "XBOX-Live"

[Razorsaw]

... I obviously haven't made people very happy with me. Um. I'll bow out of the conversation now, I guess. ._.

[Qwazin]

Speaking of characters, TT was intended as a joke, right? I mean, he talks in an annoying "cool-hip" way, (making him sound kind of like he's Dannish) and he's got blue spikey hair and cool-hip glasses. Maybe I'm stupid for missing the point, but he's intended as a satrical take on "cool" characters, right? I just can't see him as a serious addition to the Banjo universe otherwise. :x

[Razorsaw]

Well, a lot of the characters in the banjo universe are kind of based on parody and not really serious themselves.

The main characters included, to an extent.

But yes, you're correct about T.T.

[Cooki-Cooki]

Remove the actors and create more 1 scene characters, beacuse it was annoying to see the same old characters over and over again in every level, the roles they played were okay. but I'd like to see them performed by NEW characters each level.

[Shiner]

Speaking of characters, TT was intended as a joke, right? I mean, he talks in an annoying "cool-hip" way, (making him sound kind of like he's Dannish) and he's got blue spikey hair and cool-hip glasses. Maybe I'm stupid for missing the point, but he's intended as a satrical take on "cool" characters, right? I just can't see him as a serious addition to the Banjo universe otherwise. :x

I liked TT, I thought he was a great addition to the Banjo cast, seeing him and hearing his voice actually reminded me of the feeling you got from previous games when meeting a ridiculous new character.

The problem is, as with all the other characters, that was diluted when he turned up in every single level... as an actor.

However, I didn't mind the actors thing as much as many people. It wasn't much of an issue for me. My problem was the poor use of characters and the repititiveness of meeting the same people in every level.

[Shiner]

As doubtful as it seems, if Rare do decide to do a totally new, pure platforming Banjo game, here would be my basic suggestions:

1) Start from scratch. Banjo and Kazooie have all their basic platforming abilties (double-jump, ground pound etc.) but none or very few of the more extravagent ones*. This gives Rare a fresh canvas to create a proper next-gen platformer that isn't tied to the past (at least terms of game mechanics).

2) This is where I'd expect Rare's genius to kick in. What kind of new abilities can they come up with that would appeal to a more modern audience? Would you have customizable abilities that you can define for yourself? Would Kazooie and Banjo be able to split up for co-op sections? Would they introduce FPS sections in a similar vein to the Banjo Tooie mini-games? Would they allow you to use customizable vehicles in mini-game races? What kind of levels would you have? The open-ended ones designed for exploration or the focussed ones designed for pure-platforming, maybe a combination of both?

There are so many oppurtunities here to create a superb platformer with modern appeal without having to radically overhaul the franchise. We all accept that the next Banjo Kazooie game cannot be a carbon copy of the past games.

3) Put characters to better use, or better yet, even let you control them for certain sections (which would replace transformations). You could have one additional character in each level that the user could control (in a similar way to how you were able to control Mumbo in BT). They could have an ability that would allow them to do something Banjo and Kazooie cannot, and could be cleverly used to create interesting puzzles.

*People need to get it out of their heads that giving Banjo and Kazooie back all their old moves would make it better. I honestly don't think it would. It would show no innovation what-so-ever and would just tie the gameplay way too much to the N64 games. I want a platformer, but not one that's completely identical to the old ones.

[Tanjo]

I think when a people say they want the old moves pack, they mean that they want to play with moves, not vehicles.

[Ccd-ToF]

I want a old-like BK game with world, jiggy, notes, jinjo and moves. ^^

[Shiner]

I think when a people say they want the old moves pack, they mean that they want to play with moves, not vehicles.

Yes, I understand that...

But some honestly think that having jump pads, golden feathers, eggs, and all the BT conventions back will make a great game. I don't think it would.

Banjo Kazooie does need to move along with the times. My argument is that it can be done within the platforming genre. Mario Galaxy is the only evidence that you need to showcase that, but even Ratchet & Clank on the PS3 isn't doing too badly.

There is room for platformers in the next-gen (well current-gen now lol), in fact there's plenty of room considering not many people are making them anymore...

[muna]

I didn't read through all of this monstrously huge thread so I apologize if this is already somewhere else, but PLEASE BRING BACK ALL THE OLD MOVES! I miss talon trot and all of it's friends so badly. It is one of the primary reasons why I stopped playing N&B.

[Tanjo]

Yahtzee got it right: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/9-

2:42

[deadlinejon]

id like them to have both traditional platforming and veicle gameplay. that way everyone gets what they want.

[Drihscol]

you know, they could still call it banjo threeie, and banjo nuts and bolts could be like one of their spin off games like banjo pilot.

[x Liquid Squid]

you know, they could still call it banjo threeie, and banjo nuts and bolts could be like one of their spin off games like banjo pilot.

It's not though, because of grunty and the story and all.

[Tanjo]

They can still pretend like Nuts and Bolts didn't happen in the next game, making it a running-gag that everyone forgot about it.

[Shiner]

id like them to have both traditional platforming and veicle gameplay. that way everyone gets what they want.

But Rare have to be careful if they go down that route.

Do it wrong and you essentially have either two half-games stapled clumsily together, or a game that tries to cram in too much from both genre. Neither of those would satisfy anybody.

[Tanjo]

Which is exactly the point Yahtzee made in the link I posted.

[Dylan Yoshi]

I could care less if they keep the vehicles or not. But these things are absolutely necessary:
-Use different characters in each world! The reuse of characters was just dumb. Likewise, make those characters talk.
-Make the mumbling last longer.
-More bosses, each with their own personality and description like in BT.
-Bring back the basic old moves. Rat-a-tap-rap, the roll, Talon Trot, etc. They don't need to be used to a a large extent, but they should be there.

[Shiner]

Which is exactly the point Yahtzee made in the link I posted.

That he did, his exact quote being that there is:

... a typical problem in the media (games) in that rather than focussing on pleasing a particular audience, designers try to please as many people as possible and end up giving a blanketly mediocre experience for all.

Exactly what I said. If Rare sellotape a platformer onto a vehicle game it won't please anybody.

He also said:

Don't fix what isn't broke, taking a format which has proven a massive success and glueing on extra bits rarely causes the coveted lightning to strike twice.

[jin]

Seeing how Banjo was the first game I got with my N64 and been a fan ever since I just have to add to this thread

- New & Old moves. Giving them some of their old moves back is only logical, and in the first trailer you guys seemingly hinted to using Kazooie as a keyopener or a Drill, I'm sure there are plenty of other posibilities that haven't been used.

- Somehow get Grant back for the music, preferably

- Real worlds, the mechanic kind of world works, but only for one level, not for each one or it just starts to feel lifeless. Level size I'd say anything between Kazooie & Tooie really. And have plenty of them, I'm talking 15 to 20. Mario Galaxy had 30 plus if I'm not mistaken. I can understand having only 6 levels in N&B considering their size, but I don't think it's asking too much for at least twice that amount of levels if they would be half the size of N&B's levels. And even if that is asking much then i would not mind seeing a remake or 2 from a previous world, which has "evolved" over the course of the last 8 years.

- Collecting. Hell I enjoy finding and collecting every last bit in a game and i'm sure a lot of people do too and as long as you make most of it optional you wont hear anybody complain.

- Vehicles were ok, but just once, as many other people I agree that N&B fellt like a spinoff, so no more please

Basically how most people are feeling really. It's indeed like the above posts say honestly. You pleased the new Banjo gamers of this time with N&B. Now please, please the classic Banjo gamer the next time =( (you don't want to be like nintendo and toss aside your hardcore gamers for casual gamers now do you? Unless you want to be like them and sell your soul and true fans for money)

I am looking immensely forward to a true Banjo game, and you guys can take all the time you want, as long as it happens (preferably less then 8 years)

[pokemega32]

Alright, you guys DO realize that Banjo 4 isn't neccessarily in the planning stages, right?

As I said, just about everything's being discussed at the moment (to the best of my knowledge). I mean, this is the same team that did GBtG, so you shouldn't rule out the possibility that their next project isn't even a Banjo game!

At this stage, all I can say for certain is that all shall be revealed in due course, probably many months down the line.

On topic though, my thoughts for BK4...

I really doubt they'll get rid of the vehicles entirely, seeing as that's their thing right now...

I'm thinking something like having a set of premade vehicles in each world. You can edit them like LOG's Choice vehicles, and find other parts lying around in the worlds, that can be connected to this vehicle.

The vehicles could only be used for transportation in some parts of the levels, and certain Jiggy challenges that required them.

Otherwise, you'd be back to normal platforming, with most of your moves being relearned...

[Banjoman]

There should be more googly eyes.
I lol'd

Honestly, all I can say is that I just want the next game to be a Banjo game rather then a new concept with Banjo slapped on it in order to gain attention.

The next game needs to stick to it's platforming and exploring roots, making a general carbon copy could only happen if Rare reused everything. Banjo and Kazooie lost their moves and got them back in N&B, why just give ALL of them back? Have them start out with a few of them, then as the game progresses, introduce completely new moves to give the game it's own "definition" in the franchise.

If Rare doesn't want to make a carbon copy, then at least ditch the vehicles. I promise this, if they make a "Banjo-Tooie" for Nuts and Bolts, I will not purchase it. The concept isn't Banjo, it will never be Banjo, and what I played was NOT Banjo. Showdown Town was the most fun I had in N&B, it clearly shows how alive the so called dead genre of platforming is. It's stuck to Banjo's roots, they have the open window to make a similar game because N&B proved Banjo is still regarded highly by the public because of it's surprising sales.

Gregg Mayles has said on numerous occasions that he feels more comfortable following his instincts for the game play. I can't say I have complete faith in the direction Mr. Mayles is going by now.

3) Put characters to better use, or better yet, even let you control them for certain sections (which would replace transformations). You could have one additional character in each level that the user could control (in a similar way to how you were able to control Mumbo in BT). They could have an ability that would allow them to do something Banjo and Kazooie cannot, and could be cleverly used to create interesting puzzles.

*People need to get it out of their heads that giving Banjo and Kazooie back all their old moves would make it better. I honestly don't think it would. It would show no innovation what-so-ever and would just tie the gameplay way too much to the N64 games. I want a platformer, but not one that's completely identical to the old ones.
Ok, now this I don't agree with fully. Banjo-Tooie should be how far they cut the whole other character deal, otherwise we'll have the same disaster Sonic games suffered from for awhile now. Mumbo is where it should stay. If they have to introduce a new character, make sure the character has enough to weight hold him/herself up in the game and not just be slapped in for the hell of it to help continue further.

[FireGrey]

it should be called banjo-threeie and have grunty's lair and isleohags with bigger levels or a game that be's likes the old ones

[LoMoNoCrAt]

This. (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UaKtkOWu5fQ)

[Banjoman]

This. (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UaKtkOWu5fQ)
Wow. That would be an AWESOME mechanic to use in the next game. The whole world could be continuously be drawn out, and you could walk along the paths and whatever else it makes for you. Or, it would make an awesome level.

[Shiner]

This. (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UaKtkOWu5fQ)

That clip depresses me...

Ok, now this I don't agree with fully. Banjo-Tooie should be how far they cut the whole other character deal, otherwise we'll have the same disaster Sonic games suffered from for awhile now. Mumbo is where it should stay. If they have to introduce a new character, make sure the character has enough to weight hold him/herself up in the game and not just be slapped in for the hell of it to help continue further.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't want useless characters introduced for the sake of propping up the series. As you said, Sonic is proof of this. How many crappy new characters now?

But I don't see the harm in occassionally letting you control another character in order to get a specific jiggy as long as they give the character a very interesting ability that neither Banjo or Kazooie could have. But then again, now that I think about it, that would be very difficult since Banjo and Kazooie can do just about everything...

- New & Old moves. Giving them some of their old moves back is only logical, and in the first trailer you guys seemingly hinted to using Kazooie as a keyopener or a Drill, I'm sure there are plenty of other posibilities that haven't been used.

Key word: some

They must be very careful in the moves they'd choose to give you back. Having all your old moves back would be a disaster IMO because it limits Rare's scope for coming up with new challenges and it alienates people who are new to "real" Banjo games.

- Real worlds, the mechanic kind of world works, but only for one level, not for each one or it just starts to feel lifeless. Level size I'd say anything between Kazooie & Tooie really. And have plenty of them, I'm talking 15 to 20

15 to 20 might feel a bit cluttered. 8 to 10 good quality levels, as you said inbetween the size of Kazooie and Tooie's ones would do me fine. I don't mind having loads of levels, but it becomes difficult to think of original concepts for them after a while.

Collecting. Hell I enjoy finding and collecting every last bit in a game and i'm sure a lot of people do too and as long as you make most of it optional you wont hear anybody complain.

I enjoy collecting stuff as well.

But I recognise that it cannot be nearly as prominent as it was in the old games. Platformers that relied too heavily on collect-a-thon challenges ruined the genre. The Banjo games had a good mix of tasks and exploration and the collecting just game naturally. But the half-assed platformers that followed them (mostly movie tie-ins) over-relied on collecting and gave platformers a bad reputation because of it - making them seem outdated.

So by all means, have collecting in there, as long as it is mostly optional. In fact, if it's optional, people might enjoy it more, since it's kinda like a "bonus" and they don't feel they're being forced to do it.

As for Notes. How should they be scattered? Well, like in BK and BT (and even N&B to be fair), most of them should just be found naturally as you complete challenges and explore the world. There should however be those couple of notes that require that little bit of extra skill, effort or exploring to obtain.

[Banjoman]

The worlds need themes to them, and they need their own equal or more length of exploration to find notes, jinjos, or whatever else. Also, everything laid out should have a purpose as to why it's there. If there's a ledge don't just put it there for the sake of putting platforming in, the worlds in B-K felt like a giant circuit all working together. Every part of the worlds had a reason to be there, giving them all their own existence and "weight."

Example would be Terrydactyland. The giant waterfall had a vine under it you could climb up. You make your way to the top and you find yourself inside a giant cavern. Inside is a few rooms filled with notes to find, a few enemies, and a new move to learn.

Freezeezy Peak had the Snowman's scarf. It wasn't there for decoration, both sides either helped you make your way onto the snowman, or had you sled down and solve an instance to earn a Jiggy(Boggy).

[Shiner]

Freezeezy Peak had the Snowman's scarf. It wasn't there for decoration, both sides either helped you make your way onto the snowman, or had you sled down and solve an instance to earn a Jiggy(Boggy).

I think that was part of the genius of BK and BT. It managed to get the aesthetic without compromising platforming and vice versa. That is a hallmark of great game design...

Click Clock Wood's huge central tree is another example. Aesthetically brilliant but also an amazing platforming section... I still love climbing it. I always get the feeling of having conquered something formidable. Basically, it was a real challenge...

That's the way a platformer should be...

Sadly, thanks to evil movie-tie-in developers, platformers turned into "collect me 5 million blue blobs to get the first of 5 red hankerchiefs which enable you to collect one of the 1000 yellow something-or-others." That tarnished platformers' good names.

But this thread has given me hope. There are people that can see what needs to be done to make platformers relevant again, whether in a Banjo game or not.

Anyway, I'm done with my off-topic rambling. Back to suggestions:

- Perhaps they could take the Boggy's Gym idea further and allow you to customize abilities for Banjo in order to complete specific challenges. I dunno if it would work, but it's an idea.

[Banjoman]

Agreed, platforming is about more then just collecting a million things to move on. That's not what Banjo is about, it has a lot more going for it instead of that simple formula.


Yea, I really liked Boggy's Gym. It was one of the only things I liked about N&B that the originals didn't have. They could really expand on the idea in the next game somehow.

[Shiner]

Yea, I really liked Boggy's Gym. It was one of the only things I liked about N&B that the originals didn't have. They could really expand on the idea in the next game somehow.

The only thing about Boggy's Gym is that perhaps it was more appreciated in N&B because of the lack of other abilities available for Banjo.

But I'd like to see the Gym expanded perhaps so that you can gain abilities other than extra speed and strength. Maybe you could have a Boggy's Gym pop up in every other level (similar to Mumbo's hut in BK and BT), where you have to complete a specific challenge to gain a new ability.

Perhaps in the first level, you're in world which has a lot of ropes for some odd reason and you need a rope-climbing ability to get up them. Go to the Boggy's Gym in that level, do the challenge and gain the ability. I think that would be a good way of making players felt like they've earned an ability rather than just gotten it for nothing.

Also, in the early levels, you may have 2 or 3 moves that can be learned at the gym, and the challenges are quite easy, but as you move up through the game, perhaps there'll only be one move to learn in level and it will be tough to gain.

Also, the challenges would provide a great way of providing a tutorial for moves so would allow Rare to introduce more complex abilities than previous games.

[Banjoman]

I like those ideas. Boggy's Gym could be the "Heggy's Egg" for the next game.

[Shiner]

I like those ideas. Boggy's Gym could be the "Heggy's Egg" for the next game.

It could be.

Obviously though, those are only my ideas and even if Rare did for some reason use them, I'd expect them to expand on them further. In reality, my idea is simply an extension of the old system where you learned moves from Bottles, and Jamjars. The key difference is in providing that satisfaction element by making you earn abilities.

Another idea that has come to me, although I'm sure this is obvious, is to make whatever mini-games that come up in the game Live-enabled and have an online leaderboard. That is a MUST if they go the platforming way.

Also, I don't mind if they throw in an FPS mini-game or two. What harm? It may provide a bit of entertainment for even some non-Banjo fans. As long as the focus remains on the platforming, they can be as imaginative as they like with the mini-games. In fact, I welcome diversions from traditional play every now and again, it varies things up (by "diversions" I of course do not mean an entire game btw lol)

Also Jinjos... I know I'm being old school, and not to contradict what I said previously in threads about collecting etc., but they should be turned back into well-hidden collectables.

They needn't be essential, but a nice reward for making the effort to explore the level. Jinjo "challenges" don't really work.

[Banjoman]

I just want the next game to be more about the world of Banjo instead of focusing on lifeless vehicle parts and mechanical settings. Nuts and Bolts felt very "stale" and unmoving because everything was based around machines and such. Just didn't work for me.

[Qwazin]

The thing I liked the most about N&B was visiting Nutty Acres for the first time. It had me really excited when I was exploring the world, and it was a very impressive visually. Sadly there were no jiggies hidden around the world, and if you wanted to do a challenge you just flew to a guy and he told you to do a couple of laps around a volcano. :( That got kinda stale after a while.

I wish N&B had been a traditional platformer, cause both Nutty Acres and ToT I think would've been amazing levels to play in. (Especially Terrorium of Terror. It might not've been designed practically for the veichles, but visually it was mindblowing to me. I could see it beeing the next Mad Monster Mansion, or a darker version of Click Clock Wood, had it been traditional)

[Banjoman]

I hear ya. Nutty Acres was very memorable, it could have been so much fun if it wasn't just a stretch of land with a Volcano. :/

Also, am I the only one who hated how Notes were presented in N&B? It felt like they got lazy and just put them in random locations without even trying.

[Shiner]

Also, am I the only one who hated how Notes were presented in N&B? It felt like they got lazy and just put them in random locations without even trying.

Well "hate" would be too strong a word on my part. They didn't bother me that much. But I can see your point. In BK and BT notes were placed meticulously about the levels so that some of them you'd come across as you explore naturally, and some you'd have to go to that extra effort of finding.

N&B, the notes are just kinda... there.

[Bottles98]

Never really got that kind of impression from the Notes, although I do feel that exact way about how the Jinjos are placed.

[Tanjo]

The Jinjos weren't collectables, they were just more questgivers.

[Bottles98]

Well yeah, but even so, for the most part, they didn't seem "hidden" (which I imagine they were still supposed to be, seeing as they don't initially appear on the map), it seemed more like "they could be standing in any random spot in this gigantic area."

[Shiner]

Jinjos could have been used to bring back a few bits of the classic exploration. They could have hidden them in areas that you could only access with searching and platforming.

[ZSW]

I would like to see how the characters looked in the original two[I don't care much for graphics and I thought the original had the best graphics]

Original moves/platforming + new moves

More variety of bosses and levels

That's about it

[Sarge]

I would like to see how the characters looked in the original two[I don't care much for graphics and I thought the original had the best graphics]

Original moves/platforming + new moves

More variety of bosses and levels

That's about it

I personally liked the more "manly" look for Banjo if you will. He looks like he has matured with the times. However, they ruined Kazooie. She was a smart talking bird. You can't really tell the gender of a bird by looking, in N&B they overly feminized her and took out her wit.

[FireGrey]

why doesn't rare ditch microsoft,make a new console and make games like they used to?

[LoMoNoCrAt]

why doesn't rare ditch microsoft,make a new console and make games like they used to?

Because they don't have the money, and a console with only one developer supporting it would fail. Miserably.

[ChaoticTH]

Have it where you can use Moves OR Vehicles to get jiggies and such.

But, like how in Mario Kart Wii where if you use the wii Wheel you get a fancy golden wheel next to your name, maybe have a bonus for using vehicles in all challenges, but none for using Moves(Having the ability to use moves again is a privilege on its own lol)

[Shiner]

Have it where you can use Moves OR Vehicles to get jiggies and such.


Again, this is one of those ideas that sounds great on paper, and it does have its merits.

But if you think about it, the potential for a disaster of a game is much higher if they go this route. Trying to squeeze two types of games into one could lead to a jumbled mess - a game that doesn't know what it is. The two types of gameplay seem too incongruous to work.

I am of course willing to eat my words if Rare could somehow manage to make such a game.