BK/DK64/BT mystery 2 - after 8 years...

[BanjoPL]

Originally Posted by krueger14

lol no. all 7 items must have been planned for Dk64. There are 7 Mystery Items to be unlocked still in the game. The fairys replaced the eggs and key

Yes I already said that. 6 eggs and ice key were planned for DK64 but feature was cancelled so Rare used ice key and 2 eggs to promote/tease Banjo-Tooie.

[BanjoPL]

So yeah. After all those years we know much more about feature than before thanks to Grant and futher researching. The very original SNS was planned between BK and DK64. The method was hot or cold swap. 6 eggs and ice key were supposed to be transfered from BK to DK64 and unlock something. The feature was cancelled because Nintendo didn't like the idea. At the end of BK development Banjo Team decided to use remaints of SNS to promote/tease Banjo-Tooie. The twist is that based on data in Banjo-Tooie ROM - SNS feature was coded in BT even after failure of original BK-DK64 connection! The extra text revealed that 2 eggs and ice key were planned to be transfered from BK to BT to unlock Breegull Bash, HOMING cheat and Dragon Kazooie (not sure about yellow egg and Jinjo in multiplayer). But for some reason it can't be activated in released version. The new method is unknown - it can be backup plan like 64DD (this would explain another failure of feature after cancellation of 64DD outside Japan) or Controler Pak.

That's all...

[The Colonel]

the question of stop n swap is not what it does, nor what its origins are

it's what it is truly asking you to stop and swap in the first place

[krueger14]

Nice post BanjoPL.

I really do wish I knew the whole story from top to bottom

[BanjoPL]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

the question of stop n swap is not what it does, nor what its origins are

it's what it is truly asking you to stop and swap in the first place

The way how Banjo-Tooie was supposed to rise Sharkfood Island, blast icy wall in Wozza's Cave and open door in Gobi's Valley...i'm afraid that this will remain as forever secret.

[The Colonel]

well now i just got a serious response to a complete joke post and i just don't quite know what to say

[BanjoPL]

Stop 'n' Swap strikes back!

During AMA with Yooka-Laylee's Playtonic Team a lot of people asked them about SNS. They ignored most of SNS releated questions but they released this:

[–]PlaytonicGames
[Gavin Price] I didn't get to use SNS in Tooie, but I did get to bring the ice key into DK64 as a tester! That feature was canned obviously.

This is another part of puzzle to fully figure out history of Stop 'N' Swop feature.

So it was all started when GoldenEye team found RAM-trick. Banjo Team re-used it and got idea to connect two Banjo games. Banjo-Kazooie released with SNS feature. Banjo Team used DK64 as a game to fully test Stop 'N' Swop feature. It worked once. Ice Key was transfered from BK to DK64. They got idea for planned SNS features in BT. But something went wrong and they cancelled very promising feature BEFORE release of DK64. So for Banjo-Tooie they decided to include ice key and eggs and rewards for them in game without shifting cartridges. They put a reference to cancelled feature in Banjo-Tooie in Jolly's Tavern.

It seems that Stop 'N' Swop was cancelled at the very last minute of DK64 development when the game was under test stages. The question is if all of SNS code was removed from DK64 and are there more remains of it than ICE KEY 1/1?

[The Colonel]

THIS IS A NON-STOP HIGH-SPEED ROLLERCOASTER CHASE THROUGH THE DARKNESS THAT NEVER ENDS NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU CLING TO THE BARS OF THE TRAIN IT KEEPS GOING FASTER AND FASTER AND YOU YELL AT THE TRAIN CONDUCTOR BUT HE CAN'T HEAR YOU AND EVERYTHING BEHIND YOU HAS TURNED INTO A HAZY DISTANT MEMORY EVAPORATED BY THE SPEED OF LIGHT AND THE TRAIN CONTINUES TO PICK UP SPEED AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS GET READY FOR IT TO ROCKET-PUNCH SMACK YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE AT MACH TWENTY, AND ITS NAME IS STOP AND SWAP

[krueger14]

Rare doesnt remove things. Lol. I'm guessing that's why the text remains

[BanjoPL]

Originally Posted by Siege

Honestly, I'd think that by "took the Ice Key into DK64," he means they tested Stop n Swop with it, since it was a game being developed at the time.

So they modified the code of both for testing, but only added this one value, in order to test SnS. And I think that's the extent for SnS on DK64

In Banjo-Kazooie Mumbo said that secrets are for Banjo-Tooie and BK/DK cameos were removed from the both games before the release. "Ice Key Test" in DK64 could happen when Rare got a very first idea about upcoming connection between BK and BT but something went wrong and cold/hot swap was cancelled before release of BK. My reasech indicates that 64DD was planned for BK-BT connection after failure of hot/cold swap thing. But this was cancelled when 64DD never left Japan and US release was cancelled in 2000.

So i think that Mumbo's Pictures in BK used a content from already cancelled SNS feature (they just left 6 eggs, ice key and few secret areas in game without a purpose so they used pink egg, ice key and blue egg as tease for upcoming connection) and connection for BT was planned as 64DD feature.

[Hikari]

Originally Posted by Tee-Hee

I'm terribly surprised that Rare never considered using a Memory Pak instead of hotswapping. Since it's not a required feature, just having a few bytes saved to the Pak would be an easy way of doing it.

Originally Posted by JamesDNaux

Somewhere, in some alternate dimension, there are Banjo fans who never experienced the mystery of Stop 'N' Swop. These fans simply know it as a feature within the games Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie, nothing more, nothing less.

These fans also enjoy playing as Banjo in Super Smash Bros, as M$ never made the XBox due to the Sega Dreamcast being a complete success, also meaning that Sonic is sadly not in Brawl (Snake and Mewtwo, however...)

The true meaning of Stop 'N' Swop was the entire fate of Rare, Sega, and the XBox, clearly.

lol I always thought why didn't they just use a memory pak. There were tons of PSX games with tens of CDs each that allowed players to advance in CDs.

I think they didn't do it, just because they thought that hot swapping was gonna work (considering that it was the way it would be implemented). I still believe that BK's SNS's side is fully implemented, based on official info as those on first page of this thread.

Also, let's think this way. If SNS was implemented using simple sharing of memory pak data among games, many people, me included, would not like it, for it being too similar to PSX's CDs. Some could even wrongly think Rare was envyous of PSX.

It'd not be fun enough. They had a much higher Dream.

Now, regarding DreamCast and XBox, I disagree. On that time, in late 90's, game market was growing and brought attention of Sony and M$. Both had the same strategy, approach console providers and work with them to learn and earn experience.

Sony failed. The hardware it developed - and they never tried to do it again alone - was way too trashy and N dropped it. Sony then had to fast forward its plans and release it as PSX. But, if it was released as a SNES CD, Sony for sure would have still released PSX, just a generation later.

Same with M$. It provided OS and I/O features for DreamCast. It all went good until PS2 with its Square games be released and DC seem outdated and lacking games. Whatever, M$ got what they wanted and came with their own console soon later. And let's face it, XBox was a failure, but M$ persisted and later made itself on the market.

If something could have been done to change the game market, would be N64 with CD. 64DD wouldn't be needed, there would be no chance for PSX, Saturno would have had the fate of DreamCast and DreamCast would never be created. In case Square would remain with N, they could now rule whole console market.

[Hikari]

Originally Posted by BanjoPL

Grant already confirmed that very original SNS was planned as Cold Swap feature between BK and DK64 so those 6 eggs and ice key could be used in DK64 but later Nintendo forced Rare to cancel the feature and Rare got idea to use leftovers from original feature (2 eggs and ice key) to promote/tease Banjo-Tooie. Rare still had an idea to use ice key and 2 eggs in Banjo-Tooie so they found a new way which Nintendo allowed them (Controler Pak? 64DD?). But it was again cancelled at some point and feature was finished as Banjo-Kazooie Gamepaks in Banjo-Tooie with original rewards planned for it.

Originally Posted by krueger14

Still does not make sense. If feature was planned in BK, then why does Mumbo only show the 2 eggs?
Im sorry but nothing adds up

I think the idea was to hold 4 eggs as an extra surprise. So that we'd think "ZOMG look! They showed us a key and 2 eggs as hidden locked items, but indeed they still had 4 more eggs so hidden that nobody ever knew about! What a secret!!".

BanjoPL's theory is the best one I've seen so far. IMHO, it could be 1 of these 2 possibilities:

1) There was never a cartridge swap idea. As many other games, Banjo would be released on cartridge than they would release a sequel for 64DD, which would be as an extention and we'd be able to access whole BK content together with BT content - including be able to use BT's skills on BK's levels! When 64DD's failure was apparent, they dropped the feature and ported BT to cartridge, as again many other games did.

The heads up of this theory is that BT was announced for 64DD, and BT has Banjo's house and Grunty's castle. It's odd how the original scenario makes sense, but it doesn't seem coherent that a hole is created on a wall leading to a whole new area. It seems the original scenario was built lacking a proper path for BT world and, when they started working on 64DD BT, they were forced to link both worlds, so that we could walk from one to another, but there was no proper place for it.

The original idea should be that BT's world would have the trigger to open BK's hidden areas. We just couldn't get into those BK areas because these triggers were on BT's world. While playing BT we'd get into the triggers, we'd have a cutscene showing BK's areas opening (it always looked odd to me how the ice wall seems broken, maybe a cutscene would show something breaking it!), then walk back to Grunty's castle's levels and enter them. Get the mystery items and go back to BT's world to retrieve rewards, which also weren't available on BK's world. If this isn't what was planned, then why link both worlds in that way? Just have original scenario on BT to show bottles being killed then say B&K traveled to the new world.

Another heads up is that BK's SNS has no bugs and seems very much tested, still it seems incomplete. If a cartridge swap was intended, then BT wouldn't be able to add much data to BK, as new cutscenes. BK would need to be just waiting for some data to be available on RAM when it starts, and some gameshark codes would do the trick and unlock the whole thing and show all the hidden content.

Most people may argue on me saying the feature was removed from BK, but then why did Rare talk freely about SNS after BK was released and before hackers hacked the secret? If SNS was removed from BK, why leave the items, their areas and the extra ending, promissing a feature that was already gone? For sure removing the items and ending would be easier than removing the feature. And why leave the items behind, with their cutscenes and cheat codes, in a way looking so well finished and tested?

It makes more sense that, yes, BK's SNS content is fully there and working, and SNS feature would come on 64DD BT. And when BT was released, they'd provide the cheat codes, so that people with BK without BT could finally get the promised items on the game they own without being forced to buy BT.

The heads down to it is the name Stop 'N' Swop. It references something related to stopping somehow and do a swap. Stop could be stay still on the SNS screen. But, if we have BK cartridge and BT disk inserted together, where's the swap?

Also, if there was never any cartridge swapping idea, why would DK have SNS references? I don't remember if at any time it was planned for 64DD too.

2) BK and DK were in development in parallel. Somebody on Rare got the idea of sharing items between them. BK would be released first, then 1 year later DK would come and the sharing would be completed.

But it failed, maybe N forbid it because it could break N64 (maybe due to bad usage, maybe it was meant for cold swap and they feared people trying to hot swap), maybe RAMBUS reduced the time data would remain live after shutting down, maybe it was incompatible with the extra RAM pack that didn't support the swapping and SNS would only work if the pack was removed.

Then SNS was removed from DK and they had the idea of a BK sequel, and kept trying to find a way to make SNS work for it.

The heads up here is that it fits on the Stop 'N' Swop name and explains DK referencing SNS. But, if finished BK references BT, and it was announced for 64DD, then the whole cartridge swap wouldn't make sense. And also there's my argument that BK's SNS's content looks tested and functional and cartridge swapping wouldn't be able to add the required remaining code.

A third theory based on 2 would be that the feature was first planned for BK-DK swapping, when the name was created. When swapping failed, they decided to create a Banjo sequel, to be developed after BK and DK were done, and be released on 64DD. Luckly 64DD had a feature that would fit on the original one. Maybe what happened was even that N forced Rare to drop the cartridge swapping idea just because 64DD could provide cartridge-disk sharing with much better resources. Rare adapted SNS for that, released BK with 64DD's SNS, released DK with no SNS feature, but then 64DD failed and it was all lost and hopeless.

Another alternative for theory 2 is that DK was just used for testing SNS swapping feature. They had to develop BK's side of it, and needed another game to test it against what would be BT's side. So, instead of creating a stub game, they used DK, which was in development. For an innovative feature like that, it's better to have a real game to do tests, than have just a simple stub.

[BanjoPL]

Its a perfect time for update!

Banjo-Kazooie

1. Stop 'N' Swop

SOLVED: SNS was planned as link between ALL post-BK Rare games. 6 eggs and ice key were supposed to transfer to another game and unlock new content. It worked perfectly between Banjo-Kazooie and Donkey Kong 64 and Jet Force Gemini was planned as next game for it but Nintendo didn't like an idea and feature was dropped in DK64.

2. Lava World

SOLVED: Lava World was planned for BK and Gobi was supposed to be there. Lava area for Lair was designed but never coded. The level became Hailfire Peaks in Banjo-Tooie.

3. Fungus Forest

SOLVED: The level was planned for BK but became Fungi Forest in DK64. Advent track has nothing to with FF.

4. Mount Fire Eyes/Giant's Lair

SOLVED: The beta level rumored to be Mount Fire Eyes or Giant's Lair was test level called Temple. It was a very first level created for 3D version of Banjo-Kazooie.

Donkey Kong 64

1. Ice Key 1/1

SOLVED: At some point player could find "Huge Blocked Icy Cave" in Crystal Caves and pull lever. A cutscene of Wozza's Cave would show a way to Ice Key. Player could switch off Nintendo 64 (Cold Swap) and insert Banjo-Kazooie to collect Ice Key then switch off N64 and insert Donkey Kong 64 and use transfered Ice Key to open "Huge Blocked Icy Cave" and access new area behind it. The feature is dropped.

2. SNS music and fanfare in Troff 'N' Scoff

SEMI-SOLVED: My guess is that TNS music and boss key fanfare are leftovers from "Huge Blocked Icy Cave".

3. Banjo-Kazooie Fridge/Shower in DK House

SOLVED: It was a part of BK-DK64 link. The cutscene for it was in Crystal Caves.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5MN4wS6u0ZU

Banjo-Tooie

1. Captain Blackeye

SEMI-SOLVED: Captain Blackeye was a vilian planned for Dream: The Land Of Giants. He was dropped when Dream was changed into Banjo-Kazooie. He asks for another glass of water and even after finishing of game there is no way to buy him water and Blackeye remain forever sick. The pictures of TTC, Sharkfood Island and Pink Egg close to him are references to dropped secrets of BK. Banjo-Tooie isn't supposed to open secrets in Banjo-Kazooie.

2. Bottles' Revenge

SOLVED: Bottles' Revenge was planned counter-op mode for Banjo-Tooie. It was dropped because lack of time and remain unfinished. It can be accessed by use of Gameshark. The idea behind Devil Bottles was re-used in Perfect Dark for counter-op mode. While Bottles' Revenge is dropped Rare teased it so much - Devil Bottles's head can be seen during Tower Of Tragedy Quiz, Devil Bottles is at Banjo-Tooie montage, when someone asked them about Red Bottles at montage Rare said that its Devil Bottles and he is in a secret subgame called Bottles' Revenge, Devil Bottles pictures are placed in mansion in Grabbed By The Ghoulies, Devil Bottles is on Banjo-Tooie XBLA Theme abd has his own gamerpic.

3. 90 jiggies

SOLVED: Castle level was planned as 10th world with final 10 jiggies and maybe Grey Jinjos. It was dropped because lack of time and re-designed to Cauldron Keep.

4. SILO 8 SILO 9 RIDICULOUSLY SECRET AREA 1

SEMI-SOLVED: Silo 8 and Silo 9 can be leftovers for Fantasy and Castle lobbies but RSA is still ridiculously secret secret.

5. GRUNTILDA'S LAIR (TOWER ROOM)

UN-SOLVED: The leftover area name in Gruntilda's Lair locations bank. Its hinted in the game by GRUNTILDA'S LAIR (ENTRANCE).

6. GLOWBO CAVE

UN-SOLVED: The leftover area in CCL locations bank.

7. Jiggywiggy's Super Special Challenge

UN-SOLVED: There is a text BY THE GREAT JIGGY! YOU HAVE COMPLETED MY SUPER SPECIAL CHALLENGE so JWSSC was supposed to be completed without time record at once.

8. GRUNTY INDUSTRIES (INSIDE LOGGO'S PIPES)

SOLVED: It was a hoax. Loggo's Pipes doesn't exist in Grunty Industries locations bank.

9. Challenge 16 and 128 jiggies

SOLVED: It is a glitch. Challenge 16 doesn't exist and 100 jiggies were planned for BT.

10. SNS in Tooie

SEMI-SOLVED: Since SNS was dropped early in DK64 Rare included 3 eggs and ice key in Banjo-Tooie without a link from Banjo-Kazooie. Players can use the items to unlock new content. It seems that all 6 eggs were planned for BT because Base Egg (big and small) changes into 6 eggs from BK and 6 eggs can be used in Banjo-Tooie XBLA but 3 eggs (cyan, green and red) are missing.

Long Live Banjo Mysteries