Constructive Crisicism: BK: NAB

[Twi]

Answer these five questions:

What did you like about NAB?
What did you dislike about NAB?
How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again?
What would you like to see in the future?
Other thoughts?

I think we can all be mature enough to provide a good, solid critique of NAB, it's highlights and its faults, without fighting each other about it? Perhaps send this thread off to Rare now that some opinions have changed?

I'm looking for you all to write honest, lengthy reviews now, no sugar-coating or few words responses! Critique the game, but don't be rude about it.

I'll start.

What did you like about NAB?

I liked the vehicle concept and found it rather fun to create my own machines to mess around with. There were quite a few unique challenges, and my creativity was definitely tested. The art and graphics in the game are simply beautiful. The music is fantastic and a joy to listen to.
I particularly loved Nutty Acres given how large it was, an ideal place to test new vehicles of all types. I often found myself simply driving around Showdown Town and admiring the scenery.
Multiplayer is really fun when you have a lot of people to mess around with. Showing off vehicles to others in the Test O' Track is also a lot of fun.
Another thing I enjoyed were the new characters, and I would love to see them return in a future title. They have a bit more (no pun intended) character than some of the one shot characters we've seen in the past games.

What did you dislike about NAB?

Most of the challenges lacked variety, and can only be described as "take object A to point B in X amount of time." Some of the challenges were rather difficult in that if you started off wrong, or got knocked off course, you would have to start all over again. The lack of bosses when compared to Tooie was disappointing, and fighting Mr. Patch twice wasn't all that exciting. The meager amount of new characters was upsetting as well. Seeing a colorful, new cast of characters every level was something I had missed from the last two Banjo games. Another small disappointment involves Grunty's sidekick, Piddles. I feel she wasn't really used to her full potential, being in only one challenge throughout the whole game. She mainly stood around and hissed at Banjo occasionally. Basic moves such as the Flap Flip and Talon Trot could have easily been included. Kazooie's role as designated wrench wielder could have just as easily been passed on to Banjo. Kazooie's diminished role (and snarkyness) made the game feel moreso like just a Banjo game rather than a Banjo-Kazooie game. Gobi being reduced to a vehicle was arguably a worse fate than beating water out of him in the last two games. Aside from that and some odd physics glitches, there isn't much else to add.

How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts Concept if it is used again?

A greater variety in challenges would be a good place to start.
I would like to see objectives similar to BK and BT's, but translated to fit with the vehicular theme. More on foot platforming challenges would greatly benefit the game. New vehicle parts and weapons would be greatly appreciated. Fixing some of the camera, and physics bugs would make the game easier to play. A much fuller and fleshed out cast of characters would make the game much more interesting, maybe a bit more of an involved storyline as well. Oh, and a touch more platforming, please.

What would you like the see in the future?

Banjo appearing in another game.
I really hope the reactions to NAB don't dissuade the team from taking Banjo on another outing.

Other thoughts?
That's it.

[Glaber]

What did you like about NAB? Beating the game without up grades

What did you dislike about NAB? The stripping of moves and platforming.

How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again? IF used again. Don't use Banjo and Kazooie. This game has Banjo and Kazooie headed down the same path as Sonic, and trust me, it's not a good path.

What would you like to see in the future? More game wolds based off of Showdown town and none based on logs game globes. Also Log dethroned.

Other thoughts? You know you're doing something wrong when you're being compared to Sega.

[Twi]

Okay, a good start.

For those who have the DLC, be sure to include that in your critique as well!

I want this thread to be beneficial.

[Shiner]

Oh... have I got loads to say...

What did you like about NAB?

Well, let's start with the obvious. The graphics are gorgeous, the charming characters and character designs are there, the dialogue is generally just about right, it's got a quirky Britishness about it and the music is nothing short of phenomenal. It all feels very Banjo.

As for the gameplay, while I'm one of those so-called "purists" who has been forced to adapt to the new gameplay style for want of playing another Banjo game, I acknowledge there are many positives. For one, the vehicle editor and creation system is fantastic. It perfectly strikes the balance between giving the user variety and creative oppurtunity and being simplistic enough for the user to use. An excellent system, with very few flaws it must be said.

The actual use of the vehicles, fares a lot worse in the gameplay stakes of course, but I'll be going onto that later on. There is the odd challenge where you truly have to use your inventive talent to design the right vehicle for the job, and those challenges are very satisfying. Completing a task that requires real thought and creativity is enjoyable and I think that's what Rare was trying to achieve.

The token platforming sections, for all their worth, are generally quite good, and help break the tedium of main-game. Showdown Town is a lively, vivid place and feels exactly as a Banjo level should.

What did you dislike about NAB?

Plenty. I will begin of course with the challenges.

I whole-heartedly disapprove of the challenge structure. I think it was completely the wrong direction to take with the vehicle-based gameplay. It's boring, bland and totally removes the exploration element from the gameplay - an element that was a key part of the previous two Banjo titles.

And it only gets worse. The challenges themselves are dreadful. They are the most mundane, repititive, tedious tasks you could ever be given and Rare expects you to play through the game doing them over and over again in every single level. I don't how it happened. I honestly don't know why the challenges pale so miserably in comparison to the far superior vehicle editor that accompanies them. But they do. And I think it is an embarrassment, that for a game that affords you so much creativity, you are forced to do the same assortment of lame mini-games in an endless loop to accumulate jiggies. From crap green-hoop racing where bumping into your opponent causes you to magically stick to them and veer awkwardly into the nearest wall, to clunky shooting sections, where any concept of aiming is thrown out the window and you turn your vehicle in general direction of your target hoping it'll make contact.

And then we have the infamous Grunty challenges, which all revolve around the general theme of shooting stuff and avoiding clutter in the levels.

As for Grunty, it may as well have been Nabnut. There was no animosity, she just stood there, let you clang into her and did nothing for the duration of the game. There was never a feeling you were up against something formidable, and as such, less motivation to play on through the game. As for the other characters... Piddles was useless, Trophy Thomas... okay, Pikelet... bleh, Kazooie... useless. Most of the other characters were okay, apart from George and Mildred and Clanker mysteriously losing their ability to speak.

The levels were awful, especially LOGBOX, which is quite simply one of the worst platforming levels I've ever encountered. Too large for on foot, too cluttered for vehicles. A disaster.

The other levels, as I've seen described before, were mere Skate Parks. Nothing of any value to be seen, just obstacles for your vehicle to avoid/jump over/clatter mindlessly into. Showdown Town is the sole redeeming level. Spiral Mountain wasn't utilised even nearly enough. Overall the levels lacked the character and life that previous Banjo games' levels still retain to this day. A real dissappointment.

As for LOG, a good character, I like him. But I dislike the over-zealous fourth wall breaking. It just gets annoying after a while.

Overall, the gameplay was a major dissappointment: the challenge structure is restrictive, the challenges themselves are mediocre, there weren't enough platforming sections to balance out the tedium of the main game, many characters had little or no use, Grunty challenges were terrible, levels were bland...

And yet, I could still say more.


How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again?

After seeing the dismal DLC, I'm not so sure they can. Rare had a great oppurtunity to showcase what could be done with their concept that would be innovative, entertaining and unique. If the challenges contained in the DLC are the best Rare can produce, then they either need to A) radically change the way the vehicles work or B) scrap them entirely.

Option B) is self-explanatory, but Option A) requires a lot more work. It requires a total rethink in the way vehicles are used in the game. First of all, as I mentioned above, the vehicles need to integrate better with the main gameplay. That means getting rid of the present challenge structure and re-introducing the exploration element.

Vehicles need to be down-sized and their uses re-assessed. Currently vehicles are used to ferry objects about, and that's it. They need to be put to better use if they are to be integrated into the main game. That may require combining regular platforming with the new vehicle stuff. That's not a problem. Perhaps "vehicles" is too restrictive a word, I would say that Banjo would need to construct the right "tool" for the job. Say there's pipe in a level that needs fixing, Banjo would be able to construct the correct tool to do the task. Obviously Rare would want to be a bit more imaginative then that. But hopefully you get the generally idea. Challenges need to integrate better into the main gameplay, the exploration needs to make a return and the vehicles themselves have to be changed to adapt to the change in gameplay.

The jiggy bank system needs to be abolished. It's a dreadful system and is only an artificial means of extending play-time. Jiggies simply found in levels need to make a return. This would be facilitated by the aforementioned over-haul of the challenges.

What would you like to see in the future?

Everything I outlined above. I think there needs to a stronger focus on traditional elements of gameplay and Rare need to examine how they could be mixed into the vehicle gameplay.

If they can't, then I say forget vehicles and focus on making a proper current-gen platforming game rather than looking for some kind of unique catch just for the sake of having one.

Other thoughts?

Nope.

[Twi]

Very good, I like where this is going.

Keep up the good work guys!

[Banjokun]

What did you like about NAB?
Controls, graphics, gameplay that sort of thing.

What did you dislike about NAB?
Well to start the motherfracken camera. Somehow the camera want to work when it feels like sometime and other times it says "I'm not going to do that with you. You're on your own going thorugh this tunnel." Also the challenges (example: The Saucer of Peril Returns), personally this challenge is hard to get the Trophy Thomas level. These are the few things that bother me.

How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again?
The first DLC pack needs work especally if Rare plans a new DLC pack At least one new world or parts would be nice. But if they plan to make a NAB esque sequel at least fix the camera (and port the vechicle blueprints and parts from the the first game.) However, some people may not agree with me and want a standard platformer as is the case with some of the Rare fanbase. Also some of the moves could return and Banjo should pull his own weight in fighting too.

What would you like to see in the future?
In a nutshell one new world and some new parts.

Other thoughts?
Have you find the refrences to nintendo if you have or not here is the list.
1. N64 in the shadow of the Xbox 360 in the beggining sequence
2. Italian Genteleman=Mario
3. In the Jiggyseum (not sure if its spelled right) there is a ? block where the wood, ice, and metal dice blocks are at
4. One of the questions in "Best of Six" involves the First Diddy Kong Racing game (The one that Banjo appeared in.)

[Banjoman]

What did you like about NAB?
A lot of freedom. You could go anywhere and build anything.
What did you dislike about NAB?
The challenge system and how heavily the game relied on it. The challenges lacked real creativity and the entire experience is not deserving of calling it a Banjo game.
How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again?
Give the concept to a completely different IP, leave Banjo out of it.
What would you like to see in the future?
Banjo-Threeie or at least a true Banjo game on the 360.
Other thoughts?
Stop being shit Rare. You don't have to reinvent every franchise of yours just to bring it back.

[Chicken Eater 40652]

What did you like about NAB?

The witty humour, the nostalgia, and the fact that, for a minute in the opening, you actually thought you were playing a platformer. I like the fact they have brought back smaller characters like Boggy and Mr. Fit and given them bigger roles, I like the new bronze-silver-gold note system, the wide open levels, the brilliant and innovative vehicle creator, and much more.

What did you dislike about NAB?

Gargh...where do I start.

Okay, for one thing, this isn't so much of a bad game. But the first thing that strikes me as odd is the awful new designs of Banjo, Kazooie, and practically every character in the game. Banjo looks like a rabid animal. Kazooie doesn't look like Kazooie anymore. Grunty just looks totally strange and stupid. Mumbo has lost his good design he had in Banjo-Tooie. Humba has been completely redesigned. Basically, everything has been turned into Lego.

What gets me is how Rare actually KNOWS this - one of Grunty's lines is "Is it me or is your nose square? The fans will hate it, you butt-ugly bear!" yet their new designs are much worse. They look like Disney Lego characters - Banjo's glassy eyes and his constant smile make him look really comical and childish. Is that really the atmosphere we look for in a Banjo game?

Random events happen too often. In the opening cutscene, after eight years of not doing anything, Grunty's head randomly decides to hop up and start springing across Spiral Mountain.

I don't like the L.O.G. character at all. For me, he broke the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth walls. I would hate to think he 'created' the characters in the Banjo universe.

I don't like the way places have all now been declared as 'fake'. Spiral Mountain was real in games one and two, but L.O.G. states it's all fakery. I hate that element.

I also don't like what has happened to Clanker and most of the other museum's exhibits.

And I'm not even going to speak about the challenges, there's too much. They're clunky, horrible and so terrible that I'll leave that down to somebody else.

How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again?

Move it to another franchise.

What would you like to see in the future?

Platforming and L.O.G. killed and declared to be fake.

Other thoughts?

Rare should get rid of L.O.G., make it a platformer for the next game. I don't mind vehicles used for infrequent challenges, but not stupid repetitive ones like we got from N&B.

AND NO MORE GRUNTY BEING NO THREAT AT ALL. They've totally wrecked Grunty so badly now, I'd just scrap her. They've turned her into one of the worst ever villains in existence. Literally, Grunty is so terrible now, she just simply can't be in another game. Get a new villain. I would hate to see this new stupid Grunty in another game. I simply can't stand her.

[Twi]

A good review there Laurence.

Keep going guys, these are good.

[ksimp23]

What did you like about NAB?:
The excellent art style, graphics, charm, the characters and constructing vehicles and of course the return of the series

What did you dislike about NAB?
Challenges grew repetitve and some were just annoying and stupid, platforming element is largely being ignored, empty worlds, vehicle physics needed more work on

How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again?
Just like any person with sense would, just realise their mistakes and fix and fine-tune everything. The vehicle idea was great, and I believe it can work even better if they decide to use it again, but I do hope they realise that vehicles isn't the destined future for Banjo.

What would you like to see in the future?
More platforming but the main thing I really want is to make the world's more worthwhile to explore, not just empty places made just for challenges, and perhaps more worlds next time.


Other thoughts?
I could go on forever but I'll keep it short, this isn't Banjo's future. Nuts and Bolts seems cut off to me from the rest of the series largely due to the major changes that just don't feel right when compared to the first 2 of the series. Platforming is becoming a dying genre, with games like LittleBigPlanet and Super Mario Galaxy keeping it going, and those games proved that platforming is still worth doing. Nuts and Bolts is a great game, I have no doubt about that, but even if it did everything right, I believe I would not have appreciated it as much as a Banjo game that focused more on its roots.

[Twi]

Very nice.

Come one guys! I want to see some more.

[Tooie]

What did you like about NAB?
Gameplay, characters, dialogue, graphics, music, lots!

What did you dislike about NAB?
Camera, some of the challenges, overusing certain elements, etc.

How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again?
More unique challenges, obviously. A bit more platforming, and less lifeless characters.

What would you like to see in the future?
Some new parts.

Other thoughts?
Not really. Great game, bashed too much.

[Chicken Eater 40652]

Originally Posted by TwilightVestige

Very nice.

Come one guys! I want to see some more.

Please stop posting stuff like that, it's incredibly annoying..

[Pretzel]

What did you like about NAB?:
Well, first and foremost the graphics were astonishing and the music was amazing. In regards to only these two aspects of Banjo, I think rare did a superb job. The Vehicle creation idea was really creative and interesting, and the controls were easy to understand. Showdown town was great-i loved it as much as Grunty's lair and Isle O' Hags.

What did you dislike about NAB?
Too much of it, unfortunately.
The challenge structures were horrible to say the least; the mini-map that shows where all the missions are coupled with the extremely tedious and overall bland missions made NAB almost laborious during some sections of the game. It also destroyed the exploration aspect of the previous BK games that I loved; Instead of searching a level for jiggies and other collectibles, In NAB i found myself systematically entering a level, flying to each mission, completing it, rinsing and repeating.

I think that the freedom also took away a lot from this game. In BK and BT you were forced to walk around and search through tunnels, caves, rooms, mounds, houses, ect. With the new vehicle system, you are able to fly anywhere at any time, so adding the hard to reach, palm sweating, nerve racking jiggies (ie RBB engine room, Treasure Trove lighthouse) that made the game so enjoyable/challenging became impossible. Additionally, there aren't any rooms to be found, every level is one-dimensional and boring...a Birdseye view of each level reveals its entirety. By looking at, say, Gobi's valley in Birdseye one might think it's small, but that's because there are several indoor areas that add depth. Additionally, Levels in BT were all connected--you cant complete the game without putting events into effect in other worlds.

The Characters also drive me insane. BK and BT were lush with dozens of hilarious characters, yet NAB recycles the same ones over and over again. Even Grunty, my alltime favorite witch, is reduced to statue who waits there to be crushed by Banjo's cart. The new characters are just as dull as the game itself (A fat corrupt cop? really rare? *facepalm*) Even the main characters became bland; Kazooie seems to have lost her unruly charm, and the humor of the last games have all but disappeared.

The game overall is very dull and repetitive-It's as if Rare decided that stuffing an extremely imaginative and creative idea into a cesspool of utterly monotonous game play would produce a halfway decent game.

How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again?
Scrap it entirely or tack it onto another title. BK has so much potential to become a great game. They already had a winning formula, i don't understand why Rare would decide to experiment on what's, in my opinion, their greatest game. The difference between BK and BT was huge, and was a huge improvement, and the two games were released two years apart and on the same system. I think that with 10 years and a system that's 2 generations more advanced than the N64, Rare could have made truly made NAB a game to remember.

What would you like to see in the future?
A return to platforming *crosses fingers*

Other thoughts?
Eh, that's basically it

[wkw427]

What did you like about NAB?

The bright colors (not counting vehicles), the physics, and the music. I could just spend hours upon hours building vehicles. That is the most fun I've had in a long time! If I could go back in time, I would press Rare to make the physics game seperate from Banjo, because it just doesn't fit. I also love the online, which could of been much much better IMHO. Limiting it to a free for all in the test track wasn't good. Places like nutty acres are HUGE! I'd love to have that as a lobby, or Jiggosseum..


What did you dislike about NAB?
The Challenges. They are so much copy and pasted that it gets sick. Why not spend half a year just thinking up wacky concepts? This was the single part that made the game bad for me.
Also limiting multiplayer, there aren't any good old air or water races, but there are for land. Why?
The colors of the worlds are great, too, but when you build vehicles on the fly, they all look the same, assorted MnMs in your hand that you make believe you are flying. the paint system could be improved, too. Why limit up to 24 or some colors when it is the year 2009?! Only a few parts on the parts could be painted, and only one color! WHY??

How could Rare improve upon the Nuts & Bolts concept if it is used again?
Less challenges, more things like the jinjos. Things like jinjo race, taxi, battle and fetch made me work harder then ANY of the challenges! For example, the jinjo throw on the top of the volcano was very, very hard. I probably spend more time doing that then all of the challenges in the act combined.
90% of the challenges could be changed either by going faster, more weapons, or better stearing. Just too much of the same.

Also, streamline loading. We know that (well we don't, but it is safe to assume) that basic templates for the world exist and the acts are loaded over it. Why must one LEAVE the world, and only reload it to go to another act? There could be a toggle option thar resets the world and changes acts instead of loading everything all over again.

What would you like to see in the future?
I don't know, I don't work at Rare. But if they wanted to push the Banjo-Buildie concept further, they seriously have to add mortar to the wall instead of building another wall

Other thoughts?
I like pie