Abortion

[Oz the Gay and Powerful]

Because .

I've given this a great deal of thought on the ten-minute bus ride on the way home. Okay, so when you hear of a woman being pushed down some steps and dying or stabbed or gunned down, it's a terrible thing. When you hear of a pregnant woman getting murdered, is that not worse? Or maybe you hold the position that the only deaths were of a future mother and a womb-parasite. I don't, and that's why I think the term "unborn child" is worth some serious consideration as a concept. Of course you run into the whole unwanted baby situation, whereby a fetus is concieved via rape. And I suppose it is unfair to ask her to carry it around for nine months and after such a traumatic and unimaginably painful event. But, if you've made the previous jump that there is indeed some human worth to the thing in the womb, is abortion still favorable carrying and giving the newborn up for adoption?

I really don't know. Functionally, I am pro-choice. As in, If I had a partner who wanted to get an abortion because the pregnancy was unplanned or something I would support them. Philosophically, I'm in a state of flux.

Thoughts?

[Guitar]

Before anything, I`d like to advise everyone to please double-check your condoms. Secondly, I`m all for people choosing for themselves; I don`t count it as a life untill the heart starts beating.

[Aaron Anderson]

Babbies cost a lot of time and money. I generally don't give a sh*t about the lives of strangers. Of course I'm pro-choice.

Wait, what is this thread about?

[Bluish]

Originally Posted by Stephen Colbert

But, if you've made the previous jump that there is indeed some human worth to the thing in the womb, is abortion still favorable carrying and giving the newborn up for adoption?

The difference here being that, in the example where the soon-to-be mother is "stabbed or gunned down" etc., we're imagining that the baby /was/ wanted, and would have been raised lovingly. It's sad because this was prevented from happening in a tragic way.

Abortion is different, because that's made at the choice of the mother. She had deemed the situation wasn't right to raise the baby anyway... in this case, I wouldn't see it as a sad thing, because the mother and the child would very likely have been unhappy otherwise, and avoided this by terminating the pregnancy.

I think it should always be the choice of the mother, because she's the one who's body is affected by the pregnancy for nine months (and forever afterward), and any individual should have say over their own body. If she seriously has doubts enough to want to seek abortion, the circumstances aren't right for being a mother. Getting an abortion isn't like going in for a haircut, and any woman who'd decide that has given it /a lot/ of thought.

And for the marginal few for whom it would be a mistake to abort and would regret it later (because they didn't think it through, say), well, people need to learn from their own mistakes anyway, because that's one of the only ways they /can/ learn.

I've read that a lot of times, giving up the child to adoption leads to a lot of stress and issues down the road. Of course, any of the choices (birth, adoption, or abortion) are never easy to make. I just think the individual needs to make whatever decision she best can, in her situation.

[Oz the Gay and Powerful]

Thanks, Bulish, for induldging in the thread in a thought-out and interesting way. I'd like to get further clarification from you as to why the personal well-being of the woman takes precedence over the life of the fetus (if it can be said to be "alive"), and also does the worth of the "life" increase depending on how long the fetus has been in the womb, and if so, is there any point in the pregancy where you'd consider abortion to be immoral? After all, 8 months quite a bit of time spent thinking about the option of abortion. If this isn't an issue for you, then what makes the baby's emergence from the birth canal so special? I mean, suppose the mother truly doesn't want a child but can't go through with abortion. It is still quite strenuous on the mother, taking care of a newborn. You could say she made her decision, but why wasn't the decision "made" when she entered her third trimester?

[mccartney-tm]

Originally Posted by Aaron Anderson

Wait, what is this thread about?

This thread is about trying to spark political and moral tension between all of the forum members, so that everyone eventually gets so pissed off they leave the site. This thread is troll bait if I ever saw any.

I am a Pro-life Conservative, and I know for a fact that a "fetus" is a human being, not something the will become a human being. And as a human being, he has certain unalienable rights, with the first one being life. It doesn't make any sense at all that judgement on who is or is not a human should have anything to do with age, location, or mental development.

[Bluish]

Originally Posted by mccartney-tm

This thread is about trying to spark political and moral tension between all of the forum members, so that everyone eventually gets so pissed off they leave the site. This thread is troll bait if ever I saw any.

So, we should immediately assume that no one here is capable of having a serious discussion, and not talk about real and current moral issues?

Anyone here can click back to the 'whats your favorite toothpaste' type threads whenever they want.

[Oz the Gay and Powerful]

Originally Posted by mccartney-tm

This thread is about trying to spark political and moral tension between all of the forum members, so that everyone eventually gets so pissed off they leave the site. This thread is troll bait if I ever saw any.

No sinister intentions here. I'm open to any and all feedback and discussion that results from my original post. There are discussions like this all the time on this forum. Not everything worth discussing on the internet is designed to screw with people. That's just how it turns out sometimes.

I am a Pro-life Conservative, and I know for a fact that a "fetus" is a human being, not something the will become a human being. And as a human being, he has certain unalienable rights, with the first one being life. It doesn't make any sense at all that judgement on who is or is not a human should have anything to do with age, location, or mental development.

Fish knows there's a hook, takes the bait anyway...? Ironically enough your position, out of the others in this thread, is the most fortress-like. I'm curious how you know what you know. Again, no sinister intentions here. I just want to know and learn!

[Snagprophet]

I'm all for the abortion of foeti.

[Pez]

I think there should be a right to have a choice, but I really don't think it's right that it's become so casual now. It's seen as a plan B to contraception. Oh well, we got pregnant, we can just abort it! Like, I think fetuses are human beings, because, well, they are...if they aren't, then what are they?

[mccartney-tm]

Originally Posted by Bluish

So, we should immediately assume that no one here is capable of having a serious discussion, and not talk about real and current moral issues?

Anyone here can click back to the 'whats your favorite toothpaste' type threads whenever they want.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that these threads tend to end up like this, one way or another.

[Deebs]

Originally Posted by mccartney-tm

This thread is about trying to spark political and moral tension between all of the forum members, so that everyone eventually gets so pissed off they leave the site. This thread is troll bait if I ever saw any.

I am a Pro-life Conservative, and I know for a fact that a "fetus" is a human being, not something the will become a human being. And as a human being, he has certain unalienable rights, with the first one being life. It doesn't make any sense at all that judgement on who is or is not a human should have anything to do with age, location, or mental development.

>admits to it being troll bait
>falls right in anyway

now i know why i don't like you, and it's not only because your stance on the abortion issue!!

also yeah an egg isn't a chicken, a fetus isn't a person. in fact i think it could be argued the fetus is just the inside of an egg, the amniotic sac being the egg shell. just because the shell is transparent doesn't make it any more than an egg.

so either you're a hypocrite or you must be a real nuisance at breakfast

[Guitar]

Because insulting each other fixes everything, right?

[Oz the Gay and Powerful]

Originally Posted by Pez

I think there should be a right to have a choice, but I really don't think it's right that it's become so casual now. It's seen as a plan B to contraception. Oh well, we got pregnant, we can just abort it! Like, I think fetuses are human beings, because, well, they are...if they aren't, then what are they?

I don't think it's a casual thought for any pregnant woman. It's just percieved as casual because many people are cool with it and those that aren't are percieved as extreme. It creates a contrast that makes abortion seem like this "in" thing. That's my take on it anyway.

Also, DB, I think your metaphor sort of falls apart. Mostly because people generally don't careabout chickens or eggs either way. I feel like I should repost my previous post because no one seems to want to touch the issue of when in the pregnancy is it not okay to have an abortion and why is the moment after birth untouchable compared to say, 8 months in? Given that situation, would the egg argument work like this: The chick's about to hatch but it hasn't cracked the egg yet so who cares. Doesn't seem very strong to me.

Let's cool the jets though guys. Before it gets out of hand. I don't want this to be The People v. mccartneytm

[Bluish]

Originally Posted by Stephen Colbert

I'd like to get further clarification from you as to why the personal well-being of the woman takes precedence over the life of the fetus (if it can be said to be "alive"), and also does the worth of the "life" increase depending on how long the fetus has been in the womb, and if so, is there any point in the pregancy where you'd consider abortion to be immoral? After all, 8 months quite a bit of time spent thinking about the option of abortion. If this isn't an issue for you, then what makes the baby's emergence from the birth canal so special?

The woman imo takes place before the fetus because she's conscious, capable of feeling happiness and pain, and has a lot more to lose than the unborn fetus, which is not conscious (debatable I guess), not capable of feeling pain, and, having not yet been born, is more or less inconsequential.

If it were brought to my attention, incontrovertibly, that a fetus is conscious and has feelings, that'd effect my opinion for sure. But to me it'd still have less bearing than an already living person.

I guess the longer it's been alive, the less likely I'd be okay with terminating it. This is very subjective to each person obviously. Some people say it should have rights from conception, others a few months in, others after being born... who's to say it shouldn't have rights when it's still sperm in within the father? Or maybe when it's five years old. Personally, I choose to consider it a human with rights once it's born... and for no particular reason, but again, it hasn't been objectively established where to place that.

I mean, suppose the mother truly doesn't want a child but can't go through with abortion. It is still quite strenuous on the mother, taking care of a newborn. You could say she made her decision, but why wasn't the decision "made" when she entered her third trimester?

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you clarify?

Originally Posted by mccartney-tm

I am a Pro-life Conservative, and I know for a fact that a "fetus" is a human being, not something the will become a human being. And as a human being, he has certain unalienable rights, with the first one being life. It doesn't make any sense at all that judgement on who is or is not a human should have anything to do with age, location, or mental development.

That sounds nice enough, not being discriminatory about a human's age, location, or mental development. But do you think the fetus should still have rights, supposing it isn't conscious or capable of feeling?

Originally Posted by Pez

I think there should be a right to have a choice, but I really don't think it's right that it's become so casual now. It's seen as a plan B to contraception. Oh well, we got pregnant, we can just abort it! Like, I think fetuses are human beings, because, well, they are...if they aren't, then what are they?

I don't believe that's true in the slightest. There's no way a woman would consent to a seriously invasive (and risky, of course) procedure like that, casually - and trust me, it'd be hella rare for her not to have any guilt over the issue, even deep down. It /is/ a sensitive issue. Like Stephen said, if you're perceiving it that way it's just because people /accept/ it, not because they treat it like nothing.