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-   -   DK64 - Ice Key Discovery (https://www.therwp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18876)

ssj 25th July 2008 04:39 PM

The question is, where in crystal caverns will the ice key be activated? Perhaps one of the doors in crystal caverns lobby that dont do anything?

torrentstorm 25th July 2008 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssj (Post 377980)
The question is, where in crystal caverns will the ice key be activated? Perhaps one of the doors in crystal caverns lobby that dont do anything?

Hmm i can do some research on that, i will go near every single wall in that level, even underwater.

ssj 25th July 2008 04:59 PM

that wont work, because it needs to be properly activated 1st

xxjoesusxx 25th July 2008 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssj (Post 377984)
that wont work, because it needs to be properly activated 1st

no doors, if the developers used dk64 to test sns, and then removed it from the game very early, why would they leave behind a locked door for an item you can never get ?

Dont waste your time looking.

Glaber 25th July 2008 07:26 PM

same reason they left the stop n swop stuff in B-K.

FirionEdwards 25th July 2008 07:37 PM

Extremely interesting find Runehero, this proves that there is a remnant for sans-BT SNS in DK64 still existing. Wish you loads of luck looking for full activation.

xxjoesusxx 25th July 2008 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glaber (Post 378075)
same reason they left the stop n swop stuff in B-K.

the flag data and code for sns was left in banjo kazooie because at BKs time of release the stop n swop project had not been cancelled yet.

By the time DK64 was released stop n swop had been cancelled, not only that, but its been nearly confirmed that DK64 was only used to TEST stop n swop seeing as it was developed at the same time as banjo kazooie. They had to test it on SOMETHING to assure it would work.

Also, the reason things like remains of the ice key were not removed from DK64 is that when building a program, you will find that every little piece you put in there makes up that program, when you take anything, ANYTHING, out, it runs the risk of causing unpredictable problems and glitches, that's why developers tend to remove things such as images or actual map data, but not the strings of code referencing them.

In short, ice key reference data remains because removing code can be dangerous sometimes, its easier to just leave it behind, yet editing the actual 3d model of crystal caverns to remove a door that no longer does anything in the game doesn't affect the code at all.

Whatever door was tested with stop n swop is either opened a different way, no longer a door, or no longer there.

runehero123 26th July 2008 02:36 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I've made some good progress since my last post in this thread. Basically I figured out how to give the ice-key its own slot in the totals menu. See this video for further details:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtIajMc8Ywk

Also I've went through the code for loading each of the menu items into the totals menu and converted it into a simple to read c++ format. I made a notepad document with included info for hackers like CBM, Subdrag, or SSJ to use.

What I've learned so far is that when loading the Totals Menu, there is a game loop that loads all the Totals items EXCEPT the ice-key. This is interesting, because it means that the ice-key definetly wasn't activated the same way that the other items were (golden bananas, battle crowns, etc. ) . Most likely there is a seperate part of code that checks for a seperate variable (possibly activated through cold-swapping originally) to fully activate the ice-key item.

I've included the hacking research document(attachment) below for those who want to see how the menu loop works.

torrentstorm 26th July 2008 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runehero123 (Post 378307)
I've made some good progress since my last post in this thread. Basically I figured out how to give the ice-key its own slot in the totals menu. See this video for further details:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtIajMc8Ywk

Also I've went through the code for loading each of the menu items into the totals menu and converted it into a simple to read c++ format. I made a notepad document with included info for hackers like CBM, Subdrag, or SSJ to use.

What I've learned so far is that when loading the Totals Menu, there is a game loop that loads all the Totals items EXCEPT the ice-key. This is interesting, because it means that the ice-key definetly wasn't activated the same way that the other items were (golden bananas, battle crowns, etc. ) . Most likely there is a seperate part of code that checks for a seperate variable (possibly activated through cold-swapping originally) to fully activate the ice-key item.

I've included the hacking research document(attachment) below for those who want to see how the menu loop works.

Awesome and great :)

ssj 26th July 2008 11:01 AM

thanks rune. Very usefull info. Can you please get me a savestate with evrything activated except the ice key and blue prints, but has an empty slot for the key. I have a code that might activate it

Never mind ive actualy found the codes that activate the objects in totals menu, just need to search for the ice key

807FC82B 0001
807FC82C 0001
807FC82D 0001
807FC82E 0001
807FC82F 0001
807FC830 0001
807FC833 0001
807FC834 0001
807FC836 0001

activates everything in the totals menu except for the ice key.

bobbynicjr 26th July 2008 12:21 PM

All I can say is great work Rune, so do you think you could 'fully' activate the Ice Key Item? Would there be anything you could do with it or would it just be there, like the normal SNS Items?

SubDrag 26th July 2008 01:02 PM

Why does the ice key start at 1/1 ice keys? I'm baffled there.

ssj 26th July 2008 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubDrag (Post 378535)
Why does the ice key start at 1/1 ice keys? I'm baffled there.

because theres only 1 Ice key in the game. Before you coldswap from bk, you wont have a menu that says 0/1 ice keys. Its just like the sns menu in bk. You dont know you have a sns menu until you get one of the items

runehero- later on try 807FC820 0008 or 80FC821 0008 with the empty slot, see what happens, but go to the game selct screen first since it porobably wont work unless you activate it at the game select screen

SubDrag 26th July 2008 01:18 PM

We should try for the 2d image mod of each item here (non-global one). Btw, how does your 2d image mod work? I could never figure out how to get it going or where to do it.

runehero123 26th July 2008 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subdrag
Why does the ice key start at 1/1 ice keys? I'm baffled there.

What SSj mentioned. You don't know you have 1/1 ice-keys because you would never see it collected until it was activated in the menu. That way, when you cold-swap, it would show up as 1/1 icekeys collected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubDrag
We should try for the 2d image mod of each item here (non-global one). Btw, how does your 2d image mod work? I could never figure out how to get it going or where to do it.

There is an offset in the ASM code that points to the address of the actual 2d-image data in memory. The code I made just takes the last four bytes of the address to point to another offset for image data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyNicJr
All I can say is great work Rune, so do you think you could 'fully' activate the Ice Key Item? Would there be anything you could do with it or would it just be there, like the normal SNS Items?

I'm sure it's possible. It's just hard to do since the Ice-key isn't activated normally like the other items in the "Totals" menu are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subdrag
We should try for the 2d image mod of each item here (non-global one).

If you do a break-point read on the item-values, thats the best place to look for the image-mod. Basically it checks if the item value is greater than 0. If not, it will skip loading the image. If true, it will go ahead and load the image into the menu. I'll get you guys the ASM loop that does this by tommorow morning.

BTW, don't use the address for the golden bananas as they are constantly displayed in the menu. So a read of that address would constantly happen. Use the address for items like blueprints. Then try to load up the Totals menu and it should break on that address.

Theguyoverthere 26th July 2008 06:59 PM

Whoa, sweet! A find! :)

Question: Does Cold Swapping BK and BK64 actually do anything?

.:Alex:. 26th July 2008 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Mxyzptlk (Post 375917)
But it's a shame so few people know about the DK64 SNS remnants, even though it may have been intended to be the real SNS in the first place.

Seeing as Banjo-Tooie was originally intended to be a 64DD game, that possibilty seems highly likely, as the game beng on a disc would render hot-swapping useless as BK and BT could both be running at the same time.

I do wonder if there's any "strange" walls in Crystal Caverns? Sure they may have removed a door, but there might be an inset or a path leading to seemingly nowhere (unless they had a LOT of time on their hands to do some mass changes to the map design or the door was on a flat section of wall or something).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theguyoverthere (Post 378739)
Whoa, sweet! A find! :)

Question: Does Cold Swapping BK and BK64 actually do anything?

No. The whole reason SNS was cancelled is apparently due to revisions made to the N64 before release. There would have originally been 10 seconds to swop the games, but the changes leaves only 1 second. Not only is it impossible, but Banjo-Tooie wouldn't receive much in the way of data (if any) even if someone somehow managed to do it, as the feature had been pretty much scrapped at that point and the items had their functionality changed.

EDIT: I looked a little carefully and I think you meant DK64 instead of BK64 there. But anyway, it still wouldn't do much either.

Zero 27th July 2008 12:56 AM

Downloading a DK64 rom to test this out.

Nice job, Rune.

ssj 27th July 2008 05:13 PM

I dont think this is anything significant but i checked out the 2d image mod on artmoney

basically there is 1 line of data that probably wont but could correspond to the 2d images on the totals menu ,because 2 of the digits correspond to the yellow banana and the banana medal image

list of data( In the order it appeared)

052c- Yellow banana
2463-
8072-
3c03-
0032-
1000-
0558- Banana Medal
2463- Why is this repeated?

The odd thing is with the exception of the 2463 the other values dont crash at the 2d image coin mod, they just show nothing

also there are 5 spaces between the banana medal and the yellow banana if the ice key is included, just as there is on that list

816FAEFE ****- THIS IS THE CODE FOR THE BANANA 2d IMAGE MOD IN THE TOTALS MENU!!!!! select it at the game scelect screen otherwise it wont work

e.g 0558 will load up the banana medal image instead

Cobelcog 27th July 2008 06:07 PM

Awesome finds, indeed.

Coolboyman 27th July 2008 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssj (Post 379408)
I dont think this is anything significant but i checked out the 2d image mod on artmoney

basically there is 1 line of data that probably wont but could correspond to the 2d images on the totals menu ,because 2 of the digits correspond to the yellow banana and the banana medal image

list of data( In the order it appeared)

052c- Yellow banana
2463-
8072-
3c03-
0032-
1000-
0558- Banana Medal
2463- Why is this repeated?

The odd thing is with the exception of the 2463 the other values dont crash at the 2d image coin mod, they just show nothing

also there are 5 spaces between the banana medal and the yellow banana if the ice key is included, just as there is on that list

816FAEFE ****- THIS IS THE CODE FOR THE BANANA 2d IMAGE MOD IN THE TOTALS MENU!!!!! select it at the game scelect screen otherwise it wont work

e.g 0558 will load up the banana medal image instead

Awesome Job SSJ. I'm working on a 2D image list right now.

ssj 27th July 2008 06:40 PM

There the same digits as these

http://www.rarewitchproject.com/foru...light=2d+image

but with it being the menu modifyer, could the icekey still be in there?

SubDrag 27th July 2008 07:54 PM

I'd like the image mod like 00 = yellow banana, 01 = boss key, etc. Not the real image mod, the indexed one.

Coolboyman 27th July 2008 09:22 PM

I've discovered that Rune missed about 30 images on his list. The 2D Images actually start at 71FA80, not 720020 I'm trying to get these to load, but it's difficult.

I got them to load on the Kiosk ROM. There's also a new beta image.

KIOSK ROM ONLY - 816981A2 - XXXX (For the DK coin image, mine cart mini-game)

2DD0 - Stars (00)
2DE8 - Waterfall (01)
2E14 - Small Waterfall (02)
2E40 - Icy Water (03)
2E58 - Lava (03)
2E70 - Sparkles (04)
2EDC - Attack (05)
2EFC - Lava Bubble (06)
2F90 - Green thing? (07)
2FA8 - Smoke (08)
2FD0 - Small Explosion (09)
2FFC - Circle (0A)
3014 - Splash (0B)
3048 - Bubble (0D)
3060 - Purple Sparkle (0E)
3094 - Yellow Sparkle (0F)
30C8 - Green Sparkle (10)
30FC - Big Purple Sparkle (11)
3158 - Big Yellow Sparkle (12)
31B4 - Big Green Sparkle (13)
3210 - Smoke (14)
3244 - Red Explosion (15)
326C - Dark Plank (16)
3290 - Plank (17)
32B4 - Light Plank (18)
32D8 - Water? (19)
32FC - Droplet hits water (1A)
3320 - Firework (1B) - BETA
3344 - Explosion (1C)
336C - Star (1D)
3384 - Z (1E)
339C - Glow (20)
33B4 - Water Drop (21)
33CC - Smoke (26)
3400 - Watermelon (27)

It's really confusing why there's no camera on this list.

Fox McBanjo 27th July 2008 09:23 PM

Nice work, CBM. So at this point, were missing the Key and the Camera only, right? Could it be possible that both are in the same area, or do we positively have ALL images?

SubDrag 27th July 2008 09:26 PM

Can you get a picture of the firework? Also, I imagine those digits work for both versions? Since both started at 28 in Rune's document. Are those indexes, or just our index? Because a bunch of them are missing, and some are duplicated (like 7B)

ssj 27th July 2008 09:49 PM

this will sound stupid but maybe the icekey and cameras are 3d images?

Afterall the icekey in bk's menu is in 3d

Coolboyman 27th July 2008 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox McBanjo (Post 379597)
Nice work, CBM. So at this point, were missing the Key and the Camera only, right? Could it be possible that both are in the same area, or do we positively have ALL images?

It's possible that there's some 2D images that aren't index in the 2D Image table (If you notice my and rune's lists, some of the digits skip.) There might be more than just the Camera and Key (if it still exists), there might be more that we just can't remember right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubDrag (Post 379600)
Can you get a picture of the firework? Also, I imagine those digits work for both versions? Since both started at 28 in Rune's document. Are those indexes, or just our index? Because a bunch of them are missing, and some are duplicated (like 7B)

The digits are the same for both versions. I'm not sure why they have some duplicates digits.

The main pointer table for 2D images is 755390, and in the Kiosk version, it's 6FFEC0

btw, here are the fireworks. http://i37.tinypic.com/2nbhytg.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssj (Post 379631)
this will sound stupid but maybe the icekey and cameras are 3d images?

Afterall the icekey in bk's menu is in 3d

Logically no. All the items in that menu are 2D, so the Ice Key should be as well. Plus, I'm 100% sure the camera is 2D. Even if they were 3D, we haven't found them there either.

runehero123 27th July 2008 10:33 PM

Ha, I knew I missed alot of the images CBM. Great work getting those to load ;) . I am also confused as to why the Camera isn't showing up in that list. Btw, I'm uploading the nemu dk64 saved state to mediafire as we speak.

[Edit]
About the ice-key, one answer is that it's only used in one place. That being the totals menu. There may be a list with objects that aren't used in multiple places.

The camera I believe, only pops up from the bottom of your screen. Really, it's only used in that position. At least from what I remember.

[Edit#2]
Here is the Nemu64 save state. http://www.mediafire.com/?y4nznwnusrj . Just remember that the best way to find the ice-key image is to place a BPR on one of the Menu Item "Value Amounts" and find where it checks if the amount of item is > 0 (note: It shouldn't be the same loop as the one in my document).

ssj 28th July 2008 12:16 AM

thanks for the save

BanjoPL 28th July 2008 07:01 AM

I wonder about this "ice key 1/1". Did you Rune collected ice key in Banjo-Kazooie ROM before "DK64 Ice Key Discovery"? Did you have save from BK with SNS items collected in your PJ64 save folder?

ZackV93 28th July 2008 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanjoPL (Post 380059)
I wonder about this "ice key 1/1". Did you Rune collected ice key in Banjo-Kazooie ROM before "DK64 Ice Key Discovery"? Did you have save from BK with SNS items collected in your PJ64 save folder?

:facepalm

BanjoPL 28th July 2008 08:08 AM

AGAIN GRR I ASKED RUNE NOT YOU!!!
This is strange that it show ice key 1/1 and we can't transfer ice key...so why 1/1?
It should show 0/1.
Maybe DK64 still can "see" data from BK ( i don't think so) and Rune's answer is need for prove or disprove that.

DementedSun 28th July 2008 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanjoPL (Post 380113)
AGAIN GRR I ASKED RUNE NOT YOU!!!
This is strange that it show ice key 1/1 and we can't transfer ice key...so why 1/1?
It should show 0/1.
Maybe DK64 still can "see" data from BK ( i don't think so) and Rune's answer is need for prove or disprove that.

Can I say it to? :facepalm
But nice find keep up the good work. ;)

BanjoPL 28th July 2008 08:49 AM

The only explanation is that it ALWAYS would show 1/1 after cold swapping.So there isn't way to show 0/1.

NinBan 28th July 2008 11:02 AM

For almost all items, they must have at least one of them before it shows up. So for these items, it was useless to program a 0/1 because it showing up means you have at least 1/1.

BanjoPL 28th July 2008 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinBan (Post 380181)
For almost all items, they must have at least one of them before it shows up. So for these items, it was useless to program a 0/1 because it showing up means you have at least 1/1.

Yes now i'm understand whole 1/1 stuff thanks.

If Rune or other hackers will not found ice key image in DK64 then this will mean that ice key image would be transfered from BK to DK64.
After cold swapping in TOTAL there would be ice key image (possibly transfered from BK) with 1/1.

DementedSun 28th July 2008 11:26 AM

I didn't think it ACTUALLY transferred any data, besides it telling the next game put in to activate a string of text within the game? Maybe I'm wrong I haven't really looked into it that much.

.:Alex:. 28th July 2008 11:30 AM

I think that's pretty much it. All the stuff is in the game, it just needs flags to activate it. The trigger is the cold-swap.

BanjoPL 28th July 2008 11:37 AM

BK-DK64 Ice Key connection was explained in SNS Patent from June 1999 (just 5 months before Dk64's release!).Dk64 would show cutscene of Wozza's Cave and the way to ice key would be unblocked.Then player would cold swapping to BK and collect ice key then cold swapping to Dk64 (ice key would be now in TOTAL with 1/1) and would use ice key for open new area.

I really don't have idea why Bk-Dk64 connection was removed.RAMBUS changed AFTER Dk64's release.


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