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-   -   DK64 - Ice Key Discovery (https://www.therwp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18876)

paul.roberts20 30th August 2008 09:24 AM

have I got this right then? when you first start up dk, icekey=0, but once you reach the game select menu, icekey=1?

so for people who played it on n64 when it came out, without GS or anything, icekey=1 would have been set the whole time?

couldn't someone try to force icekey=0, then play through and see if there's any differences?

torrentstorm 30th August 2008 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul.roberts20 (Post 409159)
have I got this right then? when you first start up dk, icekey=0, but once you reach the game select menu, icekey=1?

so for people who played it on n64 when it came out, without GS or anything, icekey=1 would have been set the whole time?

couldn't someone try to force icekey=0, then play through and see if there's any differences?

I don't think it works that way :-/...

runehero123 30th August 2008 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul.roberts20
have I got this right then? when you first start up dk, icekey=0, but once you reach the game select menu, icekey=1?

so for people who played it on n64 when it came out, without GS or anything, icekey=1 would have been set the whole time?

Yeah, that's pretty much how it worked. Strange, huh?

By the way, I had to wipe my hard drive of all data due to some nasty virus infection. Once I re-download Nemu and some of the necessary video plugins + cheat tools, I'll look into this again.

Banjo-Man 31st August 2008 12:33 AM

Why dose the game change the value for the Ice Key from 0 to 1 when you go to the file select? You would have no opportunity to get one. Maybe it was for testing purposes for SNS from BK to BT as BK and DK64 were in development at the same time and because they both use the same engine the could test it on DK64 easily.

runehero123 31st August 2008 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo-Man
Why dose the game change the value for the Ice Key from 0 to 1 when you go to the file select? You would have no opportunity to get one. Maybe it was for testing purposes for SNS from BK to BT as BK and DK64 were in development at the same time and because they both use the same engine the could test it on DK64 easily

Well, we know that for one, we would never know that we had 1 icekey collected unless we could see it in the Totals Screen.To do this you would have to find a value to activate it. I know that the way it is activated is different from all the other items on the totals screen. How it was activated is what's in question.

The most probable thing we can assume is that it was activated by cold-swapping "Flag data" from Banjo-Kazooie after collecting the ice-key.

Banjo-Man 31st August 2008 09:03 PM

So to my understanding you ALLWAYS have 1 Ice Key, however you never see that you do have it until a flag data tells the game to show that you do indeed have one,(seeing as it would be easier programming wise to just always let you have one and only let you use it after its revealed).

Now I have two possibly dumb questions but:

1: Does it affect the game clear % at all? I know it probably doesn’t because you can start a new game immediately save and quit and it will still show 0 %.

2: What if you forced the game to not give you and Ice Key until you actually start playing? It might show up if it's collected while the game is playing and not just in a File select screen.

This is just a guess but thanks for your time.:)

ssj 5th September 2008 09:25 PM

did a bit of research today

the ice key flag in dk64 is not in the same area as it is in banjo kazooie

because I loaded up the flag table in artmoney with kazooie. I collected the key, got a 0601 activated in RAM and then loaded up the dk6k rom with the the table still loaded

the table then had a load of random digits 06 01 was nowhere to be found, even with runes codes. This is probably down to the expansion pack.

I then loaded the flag table in banjo tooie. Though obviously not able to do anything with it I had a better result. The digits in the area ( remember I still had bk's flag data table loaded) were all set to 00 01

so having a flag set in that area of tooie would have been acceptable

Hammerhead Guy 19th December 2008 01:42 AM

Can you post the gameshark codes to get the ice key in it's own slot?

GameMasterGuy 20th February 2009 07:26 PM

the image might not be in there, maybe they were intending on SNSing the image from BK to DK64

Tooie 20th February 2009 08:49 PM

I can't help but wonder, is there any possibility that the Ice Key was a beta item having nothing to do with SNS or Banjo-Kazooie, that ironically got removed at some point in the game?

I mean, after all, Mumbo showed us the Key would be used in Tooie.

bottles revenge 21st February 2009 03:18 AM

keep it up rune. We might find it yet.

xxjoesusxx 2nd May 2009 05:47 PM

Crazy bump, I know, but I wondered if anything more ever came of this.

xxnekrosisxx 2nd May 2009 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxjoesusxx (Post 582447)
Crazy bump, I know, but I wondered if anything more ever came of this.

When i saw this thread up here i was like ..repost wha wha ...wait NOPE haha...yeah idk if anything more came of this either..someone tell us?

runehero123 2nd May 2009 10:33 PM

As a matter of fact, I posted this in another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runehero
Actually, I was messing around with the ASM routine that displays the items in the totals menu.

There are two loops. A loop that checks the amount of each item in the totals menu. If > 0 it will create a slot in the totals menu for that item. The next loop also checks the item amount and if it's > 0 it will load the image for that item and the text into the proper slot.

However, it clearly only checks up to the 8th item in the totals menu (blueprints). Since the ice-key is the 9th item in the totals menu, it's not possible that the ice-key will load into the totals menu using this routine.

It makes sense too seeing as it shouldn't matter how many ice-key's you've collected (since only 1), but if you've activated some sort of trigger, or flag. I've forced the script to also load the 9th item, but it loads without a picture(probably because the script doesn't know which image to load?).

This basically confirms that the ice-key isn't loaded within the same code-loop as the other items in the totals menu. Which makes sense, seeing as that code loads them only if the amount collected is > 0.

This doesn't rule out the possibility of there being code left in the game for activating the ice-key. Though I'm starting to think it's unlikely. However, I'm going to assume that once the ice-key was activated in DK64, it would be saved into EEPROM in an area that could be accessed by all game save files.

So, if you think about it, that's the best place to start searching for any activation code. I'm sure if Dk64 checked for flag data from BK on boot-up, and the ice-key was collected, it would store information to EEPROM for later access.

Example:

-On Boot-Up, search for flag data stored in RAM by BK.
-If found, save data to eeprom indicating that ice-key has been "transferred" from BK.
-When loading Totals menu, check EEPROM for ice-key variable, if collected, display ice-key in totals menu.

[Edit]
It could also just check EEPROM for the "ice-key activator" variable on boot-up as well, and store that to a variable in RAM that is checked for when the totals menu is loading.
[/Edit]

Therefore, I'll probably do some close examination of eeprom, and see if there is any data that DK64 is checking for, that isn't already used in-game.

xxjoesusxx 2nd May 2009 11:31 PM

well done sir.

FyreWulff 2nd May 2009 11:56 PM

I always just assumed the Ice Key text was left over from it being the same engine as BK and BT. Build off the same code, and there's going to be some 'leftovers' from the other games.

However, checking to see if anything looks for an ice key as posted earlier would be a good idea. If they were in fact planning on having a swap-fest between all their post-BK BK-engine games, the Ice Key would have been the best item to swap between BK and DK, and keep the eggs for BT.

Now if your game is quite far along, and suddenly SnS isn't possible anymore due to N64 hardware updates, it might be easier to just set the Ice Key flag to 'on' permanently so that any SnS hooks don't have to be reworked. And/or the Ice Key might count towards the game's completion percentage - someone should play the game (or use a GS code) and see if you can still get the full % complete with the Ice Key flag disabled.

xxjoesusxx 3rd May 2009 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyreWulff (Post 582736)
I always just assumed the Ice Key text was left over from it being the same engine as BK and BT. Build off the same code, and there's going to be some 'leftovers' from the other games.

However, checking to see if anything looks for an ice key as posted earlier would be a good idea. If they were in fact planning on having a swap-fest between all their post-BK BK-engine games, the Ice Key would have been the best item to swap between BK and DK, and keep the eggs for BT.

Now if your game is quite far along, and suddenly SnS isn't possible anymore due to N64 hardware updates, it might be easier to just set the Ice Key flag to 'on' permanently so that any SnS hooks don't have to be reworked. And/or the Ice Key might count towards the game's completion percentage - someone should play the game (or use a GS code) and see if you can still get the full % complete with the Ice Key flag disabled.

Game engines contain code that is essentially the foundation of a game, not it's actual content, so content related code would not spill over into games just because they share an engine, if so, games like Rainbow Six Vegas would have bits of Gears of War code somewhere in there, seeing as they both use the Unreal Engine.

The games were developed side by side, so it's not like they just ripped banjo kazooie's code and edited it to be donkey kong 64, therefore the ice key couldnt be something just left behind in the code from a different game.

FyreWulff 3rd May 2009 09:37 AM

You'd be surprised. 99% of Tiberian Sun's text from it's missions are in Red Alert 2, Westwood just added the Red Alert 2 mission text on top of the Tiberian Sun ones.

If you've got an engine already, it would make sense to have a pre-existing item to test out early Stop n Swop, so you'd just leave the Ice Key in there.

Edit: and the reason that there would never be Gears stuff in Rainbow Six is because all Epic gives you is 'generic' code. Where a developer that builds all their stuff in-house is probably just going to fork the latest stable build of the engine, usually the latest version of their last game. It's just that some developers do a much better clean up job than others. It's so painfully obvious that DK64 was basically a Banjo re-skin with some new mechanics and so on duct taped onto it. (Want to bet that Lanky's hand-run is the same code as the talon trot?) I'm almost positive that the first DK64 alphas probably had Banjo running around them before they got DK in there.

xxjoesusxx 3rd May 2009 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyreWulff (Post 583030)
You'd be surprised. 99% of Tiberian Sun's text from it's missions are in Red Alert 2, Westwood just added the Red Alert 2 mission text on top of the Tiberian Sun ones.

If you've got an engine already, it would make sense to have a pre-existing item to test out early Stop n Swop, so you'd just leave the Ice Key in there.

Edit: and the reason that there would never be Gears stuff in Rainbow Six is because all Epic gives you is 'generic' code. Where a developer that builds all their stuff in-house is probably just going to fork the latest stable build of the engine, usually the latest version of their last game. It's just that some developers do a much better clean up job than others. It's so painfully obvious that DK64 was basically a Banjo re-skin with some new mechanics and so on duct taped onto it. (Want to bet that Lanky's hand-run is the same code as the talon trot?) I'm almost positive that the first DK64 alphas probably had Banjo running around them before they got DK in there.

That's because they are lazy. You don't see that kind of stuff too often, especially between two games that were being developed at the same time, there isn't much room for one to be running off of the finished code of the other. I have no doubt that the engine is the same, and that they may have shared code back and forth, such as the talon trot you said, but things like the ice key and stuff probably weren't added when the engine was built, but way after, at a point where both games were so far into development that they were completely isolated from each other, I dont see any way how the ice key would of just been in there from Banjo.

runehero123 3rd May 2009 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyreFluff
If they were in fact planning on having a swap-fest between all their post-BK BK-engine games, the Ice Key would have been the best item to swap between BK and DK, and keep the eggs for BT.

I think it can be narrowed down to 1 of 2 possibilities:

A) Sns was implemented only with the ice-key at a time when Tooie wasn't a planned sequel for BK. Therefore, the eggs aren't present in that version of SNS, whilst the ice-key is. Later on, SNS was cancelled in DK64, and they decided to use it in Tooie instead.

B) DK64 was used to test SNS between BK.


Quote:

Originally Posted by WyreFluff
Now if your game is quite far along, and suddenly SnS isn't possible anymore due to N64 hardware updates, it might be easier to just set the Ice Key flag to 'on' permanently so that any SnS hooks don't have to be reworked. And/or the Ice Key might count towards the game's completion percentage - someone should play the game (or use a GS code) and see if you can still get the full % complete with the Ice Key flag disabled.

As I said, the totals menu won't show the Ice-key based on wether you have more than 0 collected (like the other items). Therefore, it sets the ice-key amount address to 0x0001 so that when it does show up in the total's menu (after being activated by some other trigger), it will always show that you have 1/1 ice-keys collected.

Also, it doesn't affect the total game percentage.

Banjo-Korezooie 3rd May 2009 11:04 PM

I'm confused on a few timelines..

First off, the N64 was released, what, two years after Banjo-Kazooie came out (Long after the Nintendo 64's extra memory was dropped)? And Stop 'N' Swop was still kept in the finalized version of Banjo-Kazooie.

During Banjo-Kazooie's development, RARE was also developing Donkey Kong 64, and were at least probably testing Stop 'N' Swop with both games (I say "probably" because since there is technically no proof that the ice key in Donkey Kong 64 was used for testing SnS, as likely as that is, it isn't a fact). So if the 64's extra memory got canned far before SnS was officially shown in the finalized version of Banjo-Kazooie, even if it was originally planned to be used for SnS early on, isn't it more realistic that Donkey Kong 64's expansion pak was used for swapping (especially since that's the game that was found with a fragment of SnS in it and the one that needed the expansion pak)?

I also think it's an odd-yet irrelevant-coincidence that the Stop 'N' Swop in Tooie was gotten through game "paks".

runehero123 4th May 2009 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo-Korenzooie
I'm confused on a few timelines..

First off, the N64 was released, what, two years after Banjo-Kazooie came out (Long after the Nintendo 64's extra memory was dropped)? And Stop 'N' Swop was still kept in the finalized version of Banjo-Kazooie.

Wha...??? I don't know where you got that. The extra memory, we would call the expansion pak, which wasn't dropped at all. What you're probably trying to say is that they replaced the original RDRAM (shipped with the first N64 consoles) with the concurrent RDRAM. These only held data for a second or two after the console was powered off, while the original retained data for at least ten seconds. This is why it became impossible to "SWOP" the games in that short amount of time.

They(Nintendo, Rambus) didn't replace the original RDRAM until sometime during BT's developement. This is why SNS was dropped in BT and remains completely in BK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo-Korenzooie
So if the 64's extra memory got canned far before SnS was officially shown in the finalized version of Banjo-Kazooie, even if it was originally planned to be used for SnS early on, isn't it more realistic that Donkey Kong 64's expansion pak was used for swapping (especially since that's the game that was found with a fragment of SnS in it and the one that needed the expansion pak)?

Part in bold has been explained, and is false. Also, who's to say that DK64 was using the expansion pak early on(when tested with BK)? Especially if they were running on the same/similar engines (although I haven't seen any proof of this.).


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