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BanjoPL 12th June 2022 10:10 AM

Another bit of DK64 SNS


LoMoNoCrAt 13th June 2022 10:16 AM

This is so interesting! Until now I was under the impression that the unused Ice Key and startup flag checks in DK64 were relics of a test or proof of concept of the mechanic ahead of Banjo-Tooie. I had no idea they were ever meant to be included in the final game.

Rare_Gamer 13th June 2022 01:57 PM

Thanks for checking out the post, BanjoPL.

Along with the Crystal Caves map, the only other alteration involves that infamous Mystery Pillar in Creepy Castle. As you can see, the original object intended to be placed on the pillar would have been a Golden Donkey Kong Bust/Statue/Trophy.
Due to those maps being the only two altered, I'd reason that this too was intended to be part of the Stop 'N' Swop process:

I've also just updated the "Stop 'N' Swop: An Explanation and Retrospective" page to reflect these findings - they can be seen in the 'Connections to Donkey Kong 64" sub-chapter underneath "Stop 'N' Swop Revelations"

Rare_Gamer 14th June 2022 02:06 PM

I'm not sure if anyone still messes around with the Donkey Kong 64 kiosk version, but if they do it would definitely be worth looking further into the code for both Crystal Caves and the Museum of Creepy Castle.
Because the date of the kiosk build is from September of 1999, and Stop 'N' Swop was requested to be removed on October 1st, 1999, it's entirely possible that these early areas (if they are viewable) contain their original intention for Stop 'N' Swop.

If you can get Crystal Caves working, you would want to check out the area where Chunky can use the Gorilla Gone pad near the entrance; to the left of this pad will be a small square chamber that will likely be blocked by a wall with a keyhole in it - this did not make it into the final game.

If you can get Creepy Castle's Museum working, you would want to check out the area where Tiny Kong's pillar can be seen; there should be an object that looks like a golden Donkey Kong bust on the top of the pillar.

I'm sure that this would be in the kiosk, it just depends on how difficult it would be to get it working.

Mr. Airplane 14th June 2022 11:56 PM

Unfortunately, there aren't really any members left here that do ROM hacking.

pstriple 15th June 2022 02:07 AM

Yeah Rare Gamer, I would try contacting the people on The Cutting Room Floor about this.

They seem more into the rom hacking scene than we are anymore.

Rare_Gamer 15th June 2022 03:46 PM

Ah, a sign of the times I suppose - it's not 2007 any more...
Luckily, I was fortunate to have someone on The Cutting Room Floor reach out to me with a ton of insight into the programming of the game.
From his investigation, it seems like the object for the pillar, as well as the cutscenes involving Crystal Caves are not found in the kiosk version - in fact, a number of cutscenes are missing, which indicates that Stop 'N' Swop could have been a late addition to the game.
Also, as it's been pointed out, the kiosk version itself could have been created long before it was needed for distribution in September of 1999, so the initial hypothesis that the game might have reflected an era just before its removal isn't the most solid.

It could in fact have been created in May, or June of 1999 and held back until the teaser campaign in September - we know that Stop 'N' Swop was removed some time following October 1st, 1999, but we don't have any firm dates on when its inception in Donkey Kong 64 would have taken place.

Still, even though we've hit a dead end, confirmation of non-existence is just as important in the pursuit of knowledge as confirmation of existence, so I'm very pleased and grateful that Tom from TCRF looked into it.

Since the original scans of the Donkey Kong bust/statue/trophy from the German strategy guide are a bit unfocused I have purchased a copy of the guide and I plan on taking a nice high-res scan of the object in question. I should have the mag by the end of the month, and I'll update the guide with the image when it arrives, so watch this space.

Thanks for everyone who took an interest and contributed, it's much appreciated.

BanjoPL 15th June 2022 04:40 PM

The timeline for DK64 SNS is very dynamic:

June 29, 1999 - Cold Swap Patent ("Huge Blocked Icy Cave" and "Big Icy Key")

October 1, 1999 - Nintendo's request to remove the feature due to hardware issues

November 22, 1999 - Donkey Kong 64 released.

Rare_Gamer 15th June 2022 05:12 PM

That's assuming of course that work began following the filing of the application - for all we know, it could have occurred before that time. The creator has also mentioned rewriting it numerous times to appease the lawyers, so it could have been developed around that same time.

Rare_Gamer 21st June 2022 04:33 PM

I've received the German DK64 guide and have scanned in the Pillar Page - you can view the comparison, as well as a mockup transition between the versions here:

Pies 18th July 2022 05:57 PM

Glad to see you back on the case BanjoPL, long time no see :)

Rare_Gamer 18th July 2022 08:15 PM

Today I've received the Japanese version of the Donkey Kong 64 guide, published by Kodansha - the maps in this guide have been rendered in 3D, so it was my hope that perhaps they too would have recreated the Ice Key Chamber in Crystal Caves.
Luckily, my purchase was instantly validated when I flipped to the Crystal Caves section to reveal that, yes, the 3D map did in fact feature the Ice Key Chamber, and what's more, there's even a bit of text on the side that questions it.

Crystal Caves 3D

Obviously, the gameplay screenshot had been replaced at this point, but they missed the text in the process, which reads (roughly translated):

"A mysterious item!?"
"I can't see inside, but there must be something in the room. When will it open here?"
"^ With a powerful Chunky, can't you break it?"

BanjoPL 19th July 2022 12:49 PM

Those revelations are pretty interesting. It seems that something that was deep buried a long time ago once again became an undead.

Nintendo told Rare to think about include Ice Key in DK64 without link with Banjo-Kazooie and jap DK64 Guide hints that Ice Key could be located behind that mysterious wall in Crystal Caves.

Rare_Gamer 19th July 2022 01:11 PM

I don't think the Japanese guide hints at the compromise that Nintendo suggested to Rare, I think the Japanese guide at one point (like the European and American guides) featured the secret chamber, and any secret items documented up until the point where they removed Stop 'N' Swop.
As soon as word from Rare disseminated that they were going to remove the secret chamber, the magazine editors got to work:

- Nintendo of America edited their Crystal Caves map to remove the item, and the area itself. They would have removed any and all text relating to the secret chamber. A totally effective removal.

- Nintendo of Europe edited their Crystal Caves map to remove the item, but not the area itself, which is why the German guide still features the secret chamber. They also removed all text relating to the secret chamber. A partially effective removal.

- Nintendo of Japan edited their Crystal Caves map to remove the item, but like Nintendo of Europe, did not remove the area itself, which is why we have a 3D render of the area in question. In addition to this, Nintendo of Japan kept the informational panel as well as the text (why allude to this pointless area otherwise, right?), but altered the screenshot that would show the secret chamber in-game. A limited removal.

The Japanese guide is the least edited of the three versions above, and gives us the most insight into what the area was planned to house.
Personally, I don't think the Ice Key would have been hidden inside of this chamber; I think that the wall of the chamber would have showcased a Keyhole, just as it's described in the Stop 'N' Swop patent, and players that returned here with the Ice Key would be able to progress.
So, what item could be found in the secret chamber? That's the question, isn't it?...

BanjoPL 19th July 2022 06:32 PM

Comment from 2008 (Youtube DK64 - Ice Key Unlocked)

I was working at Nintendo while this was being made. Originally, it was supposed to be connected in a 'super-secret' way with Donkey Kong 64 (which I was working on at the time Banjo Tooie was being produced). In the end, the decision from the top was that the technique required to do the special connection was too hard to test for, and the idea was scrapped. The room where the connection was going to happen still exists in DK64, but it's walled off and can't be accessed.

From - sevinPackage

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