DK64 and SnS, not what you think?

[QuantumError]

Yeah, then it would have just been 'Play n' Swop'...
hahaha.
For all we know, it would have just added more map to travel on, and more moves to the Banjo Kazooie game...

ANYWAYS!
DK64!!!
I'm really hoping Rune comes on here and says a few things...

[BanjoPL]

Yeah he much researching DK64...

[treeckoman]

Mabye you would be SWOPPING hard drives.
but, The SnS testing for Donkey Kong Country 64 (beta name) sounds very likely.

[Banjo-Korezooie]

Originally Posted by JDTurnbull272

Okay, so this is the very first theory I've ever posted, and I'm hoping to get a bit of support with this...And I'm really hoping that members like Runehero will check this out and tell me what they think.

So I'm aware that there are some ideas floating around that Donkey Kong 64 may have possibly had some part in Stop and Swap.
I, for one, have been VERY skeptical about it since day ONE.


First, I will bring up what we DO know. (And PLEASE bear with me, I'm not trying to get tons of technical things wrong, I'm just saying this all to the best of my own knowledge from being here...)
There are traces of the famed 'Ice Key' from Banjo Kazooie and Tooie inside of the coding of Donkey Kong 64.
And from what I've read, in the menu, there is a value that says something along the lines of 'Ice Key 0/1', and then I think I've heard that Rune has gotten it to go to say 'Ice Key 1/1'.

Well, my theory has some background proof/data, and some ideas that are pulled out of my head, but most theories start like that.



Anyways, one thing that has always caught my attention is that the value for the Ice Key in DK64 is only listed as 1/1, and as far as we know, there are no other items related to Stop and Swop in the game (right?)
Seeing as there was only ONE Ice Key that we know of, and it was from Banjo Kazooie, ANOTHER Rare game, I'm sure that is why we have made this connection and relation.

Donkey Kong 64 was released on November 24th, 1999. The first Banjo Kazooie title was released on June 29, 1998, a total of One year, Four Months, and Twenty-Six days before the release of DK64.
Banjo-Tooie was released on November 19, 2000, Eleven months, and Twenty-Six days after the release of DK64.

So, MY theory, is that there was NEVER intended to be any SnS connectivity between any of the Banjo Kazooie titles and Donkey Kong 64. Donkey Kong 64, in terms of 'secrets' and mysterious things that still 'haunt/tease' us since beating it, didn't match up to the high standard that BK had set...
If anything, the main, if not only mystery we have in the game has been found from the entire Ice Key mystery.

I actually believe, VERY strongly, that Donkey Kong 64 was actually used as a Testing area for SnS. WHAT better way to get ready for SnS, a feature to be used in another year and half, than to start working on it on another similar game, same company, and similar game engine, than DK64??? I am assuming that all of the items for SnS were going to be activated in the same way as everything (i.e. all color eggs, the key, all had the same methods...)
Seeing as after Banjo Kazooie was released, most of the team started focusing their efforts on Donkey Kong, it is VERY possible that they got some of their Stop and Swop testing for the future title, Banjo Tooie, done by using Donkey Kong 64.
What I mean by this, is that since it uses a very similar engine as Kazooie and Tooie, they probably coded an 'Ice Key' into the memory of DK64 (never anything with any REAL familiar graphics or anything, simply just the 'item' in the coding...) so they could start experimenting with the feature before getting far into the development of Banjo Tooie.

Even though work had already started on Banjo Tooie, by putting this feature into DK64, they were able to get ahead on one of the FIRST (and possibly most complex) features they had planned on for the sequel.


So my conclusion?

There *IS* no SnS connection with DK64 and the Banjo Kazooie titles.
It was simply just an early start for the team on getting the features tweaks worked out! That would explain why we haven't found any other Stop and Swop items in the game, *or* any actual graphics for an Ice Key.


Following me yet?


I know, I know, having DK64 added into the blender of our SnS theories sure made it so much more 'mysterious' and interesting....
But the fact remains, why would they have included it???
Stop and Swop isn't some HUGE mystery that encompasses EVERY thought and action of Rare...it was a NEAT little bonus that we were going to get to look forward to.
Once it got dropped, THAT is the EXACT moment it became this huge 'Atlantis' of lost features...


Okay, I'm sorry if there was much in there that seemed far-fetched, or not logical, ESPECIALLY for those of you that have done any work on researching the DK64 connection. Feel free to make your comments or challenges towards this. I'd LOVE it.
I'm just trying to see if I'm alone or not in thinking that Stop and Swop isn't as HUGE and 'mysterious' as everyone is trying to act like.

Doesn't this make sense?

So, that may go to say that since SnS wasn't dropped until AFTER DK64 was released...it is VERY possible there may still be some way to trigger the Ice Key in DK64 (or possibly if anyone has a Beta Cart?) by way of Cold-Swap (as had been planned for Banjo Tooie) for those of ya with Pre-1999 consoles! That goes, of course, assuming that they never took the triggers out before mass-release! I mean, maybe they left the trigger in the DK64 memory, so you can still activate the Key that way? who knows...

mm, I'm pretty sure this theory has been out for some time now, but I will offer a rebuttal; I find it odd that both Banjo-Kazooie and Donkey Kong 64 shared VERY similar beta cameos linking the two games together at the same time RARE was working on SnS-or at least "testing" it as your theory states-only to have them rushed out of the game (I assume it was rushed, as you'll notice the picture of Tooty that replaced it didn't have the finalized blue fade like all the other pictures had, including the beta cameo for DK). If these cameos were a shout out to a connection with SnS-which seems to make quite a bit of sense to me-then why would RARE put them in at all if they were just testing SnS and they didn't plan it to be in the final versions of the games? And if they weren't a shout out to SnS, then why did RARE take them out at the last second when they seemed to be planned all along? I mean I am speculating a few things (like the cameos were changed in a hurry) but I think it's a pretty valid point that people seem to find insignificant(?).

[BanjoPL]

Yeah but both cameos in both games were removed.

[QuantumError]

Woah, epic wall of Quote....
O.o


I read a bit of your post (was a bit hard to read), think I got it...
Well, Rare puts cameos of all kinds of things in nearly ALL of their games!
What do those cameos have ANYTHING to do with testing SnS???
I mean, you can look in just about ANY Rare game and at some point, see a cameo of some sort from another game...And they'd been working on DK64 before Banjo Kazooie was even done and released, so it's not like it was RUSHED or anything...They had the idea for SnS long before DK64 was being released, and that would have gave them a few years I bet.

The ONLY 'Shout-out' if anything to SnS was the ONE item, the ICE KEY!
Didn't you catch that in my post?
Nowhere in my post did I say anything about 'cameos' or how they were shout outs to SnS or anything...But as for similar 'Beta Cameos', I don't see the big deal in that? Both games are based off of a very similar engine! So I see no reason why Rare wouldn't have taken some things from their Banjo Kazooie game and put them into the Beta DK64 until they could get some more official and final models in there...Games change...Stop and Swop hadn't been dropped as of the release of DK64, it wasn't dropped until a bit AFTER that...as to why the 'Ice Key 0/1' thing was left in, that's even weirder then I guess, huh?

Aside from the TYPICAL cameos, the only thing in there was the key...
Name another SnS related thing in DK64 other than that!
I can't think of another SINGLE thing!

[BanjoPL]

Yes but this is strange that cameos were removed from final versions.

[Banjo-Korezooie]

Like I said, I find it odd that two cameos that seemed to link both games together got taken out around the same time RARE was developing SnS-or at least testing it-for both games. My point was those cameos were implied as connections to each other. You misunderstand, I said the cameo seemed to be Rushed out of Banjo-Kazooie and replaced with a picture of Tooty that was already made (and was enlarged). What source tells you that RARE "had the idea for SnS long before DK64 was being released"? As far as the public knows I thought they could have been making them at the same time, that would explain why It's a BETA cameo.

Also I know you didn't say anything about cameos, I guess you didn't know about them but just because you didn't say anything about them doesn't mean they aren't relevant to the theory.

[Banjo-Korezooie]

Originally Posted by BanjoPL

Yes but this is strange that cameos were removed from final versions.

Well that's sort of my point, why would they be planned and just decidedly removed if they DIDN'T have anything to do with SnS? It would have made more sense if they were both in the finalized version like RARE planned, but why would they take them out?

[QuantumError]

That's kinda why I posted this topic...
It seems that so many people want to basically look at everything Rare did with a magnifying glass regarding SnS. They act like Rare has been bending over and covering their footsteps in the sand so we'd have NO way of actually figuring out the TRUTH to this huge secret, or CONSPIRACY!!!
Why do these changes automatically HAVE TO do with SnS though?

[Banjo-Korezooie]

http://www.rarewitchproject.com/?id=1274

(third row of pics)

They don't "automatically HAVE TO" but they obviously aren't ordinary RARE cameos, I mean they connect from Banjo's house to DK's and were taken out at the betas for no apparent reason, normal RARE cameos aren't like that, at least none that I can think of.

Oh, and as far as people over-examining RARE and Banjo-Kazooie I agree, but that doesn't mean you should just write off anything unusual as over-thought.

[QuantumError]

I just want to say thank you for posting a link to back yourself up!
I'm gonna read it now (plus I was looking for that particular link earlier anyways..)

It just bugs me when people pull things out of nowhere...

[Banjo-Korezooie]

Sorry I assumed you knew, but yeah I almost posted it in my first post, but it wouldn't be the first time someone scoffed at me and said it was common knowledge

[QuantumError]

Originally Posted by Banjo-Korezooie

Sorry I assumed you knew, but yeah I almost posted it in my first post, but it wouldn't be the first time someone scoffed at me and said it was common knowledge

I had definitely read that before, but couldn't find the link...


Even then, I do think that my theory STILL had some valid points (regardless of whether they were already just 'assumed' or not...)
I'm somewhat new to this whole Rare Forums thing...
Only been on here a year or less...

But still, thanks for the link!
That will give some nice color to the thread for anyone catching up on it later.

[Banjo-Korezooie]

LOL, I just checked an you've been here longer than me anyways yeah I think more people believe your theory more than the one I think may be true, but we'll probably never know for sure, I just want to know what's more realistic and makes the most sense to my overall thoughts on..well, any beta or unknown Banjo-Kazooie stuff.