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Banjo Theories & Stop 'n' Swop SNS? Bottle's Revenge? Share your thoughts on the mysteries of the Banjo series and discuss the new Stop 'n' Swop features in Nuts and Bolts and the XBLA games

 
 
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  #736  
Old 19th July 2007, 11:28 AM
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I've been researching Stop N' Swop for a long time. (And my research will hopefully one day turn into a feature on my site that you guys are going to love!)

Speaking of my research, I would like some help. As a member of the Twilight team, I would like to get some friends to help me with this daunting task:

First, some background. Rare's patent clearly states that hot-swapping carts would be a valid way to perform SnS, and this has got me curious. If you have ever pulled a cart out of the N64 while it is running, you will know that it freezes solid, and won't accept any more input or run another game until you turn the machine off. If even these basic tests yeild 100% failure for the SnS process, why did Rare even consider it and mention it in the patent? Unless, of course, they had extra coding in place to prevent freezes and memory issues. That would be the only way a hot-swap could be made to work.

So, my mission (or part of my mission, anyway ) is to find a way of making Banjo-Kazooie (which ought to be fully SnS-enabled) NOT freeze upon the cart removal. I have tried various things like swapping carts during the intro, in Sharkfood Island, while viewing the SnS menu, and so on, to see if swapping while the cart may be expecting a swap will make it behave differently. So far, 100% freezes. But if someone can find a condition that will make BK not freeze when pulled, we can prove that Rare had special programming in place to facilitate hotswapping...

Does anyone have any ideas of things to try, or want to volunteer to try some stuff themselves?
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  #737  
Old 19th July 2007, 12:02 PM
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^im doing a websecrets thing on it, im going to play n64 with my girlfriend all day today so, im gonna take some time out of yoshi story to record swop expirements.

(that n64 im playing is my girlfriends, she bought it cause its the old n64 with the 60 second rombus, she new i wanted it so she got it. even though we dont speak the same language she rocks.)
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  #738  
Old 19th July 2007, 01:01 PM
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I can help, Mike. I found some strange ares in-game before that seem perfect for Stoping and Swoping. The treehouse in CCW, SNS areas, Wozzas cave...

Actualy, I have an idea. Why not try to get BK to run after taking out BT? Try BT areas, then put BK in and see if it responds or reboots.


  #739  
Old 19th July 2007, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox McBanjo
Actualy, I have an idea. Why not try to get BK to run after taking out BT? Try BT areas, then put BK in and see if it responds or reboots.
I did do a few tests into swapping BT for BK, but then I figured that since SnS was canned, there wouldn't necessarily have to be the hotswap programming in BT at all. But if was coded into BK, it should still be there, and I want to find it.

Perhaps we should make a big list of areas and circumstances in BK in which we can attempt swaps:

1) Intro - FREEZE
2) Sharkfood Island - FREEZE
3) Stop N' Swop Screen - FREEZE
4) Wozza's Cave
5) Banjo's House - FREEZE
6) CCW Treehouse
7) Gobi's Valley Secret Room - FREEZE
8) Inside X Barrel
9) Nabnut's House
10) RBB Cabin
11) Loggo's Room
12) Beauty Machine Rooms

If everyone posts their ideas and results of their tests, we can add to and edit this list and see if we're getting anywhere.

EDIT: I just tried a couple more, freezes again. Sigh. By the way, I had an idea: might it be possible that the special coding is only active directly after picking up an SnS item? I've collected all the secrets on my cart, so I can't test that theory, but maybe someone else could investigate for me.
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Last edited by MikeHive; 19th July 2007 at 01:56 PM.


  #740  
Old 19th July 2007, 02:18 PM
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Also be sure you have a swapping capable N64. Since the newer models don't.

Though you may have already checked for this.
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  #741  
Old 19th July 2007, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalonTrot
Also be sure you have a swapping capable N64. Since the newer models don't.
What's that got to do with it? We're hotswapping, not coldswapping.

And I bought my N64 in 1997, so it should have the goods.
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  #742  
Old 19th July 2007, 02:53 PM
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Just wanted to clear out any mistakable errors.
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  #743  
Old 19th July 2007, 03:01 PM
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the 64DD was the main part of sns.

i think hotswaping was a plan B or maybe the romus is what should work.
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  #744  
Old 19th July 2007, 05:12 PM
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The 64DD was nothing to do with SnS and I don't think you understand what the Rambus is. (For one, it's not 'Rombus', and for two, Rambus is a company, not a component. I think you mean RDRAM).
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  #745  
Old 19th July 2007, 05:27 PM
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i got Rambus from an article, (stupid lying thugs) and i do know what im talking about mikehive.

in the records says Banjo-Tooie was originally for 64DD and when it phailed release in the U.S. Banjo-Tooie was put back on N64.

think about it, if 64DD had banjo-kazooie in the top, then banjo-tooie would be reading it.
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  #746  
Old 19th July 2007, 06:23 PM
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What records? Rare's patent clearly states that the data transfer would be facilitated by the swapping of game cartridges.
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  #747  
Old 19th July 2007, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeHive
What records? Rare's patent clearly states that the data transfer would be facilitated by the swapping of game cartridges.
I can't recall it either, but I think somewhere they wanted to use the N64DD for the swapping but since its complete failure in Japan they never realeased it here and had to create new technology.
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  #748  
Old 19th July 2007, 06:40 PM
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Mike's right, Steve. Rare intended to make it with carts. BT was meant to be on the DD at an EXTREMELY early development stage, but after it flopped, they started work with it on the normal console.


  #749  
Old 19th July 2007, 07:49 PM
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Please could somebody provide a verifiable source for the 64DD information? That could potentially be an interesting fact to take into account if it is actually true. Not to doubt you guys, but I don't recall ever hearing about that.
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  #750  
Old 19th July 2007, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeHive
I've been researching Stop N' Swop for a long time. (And my research will hopefully one day turn into a feature on my site that you guys are going to love!)

Speaking of my research, I would like some help. As a member of the Twilight team, I would like to get some friends to help me with this daunting task:

First, some background. Rare's patent clearly states that hot-swapping carts would be a valid way to perform SnS, and this has got me curious. If you have ever pulled a cart out of the N64 while it is running, you will know that it freezes solid, and won't accept any more input or run another game until you turn the machine off. If even these basic tests yeild 100% failure for the SnS process, why did Rare even consider it and mention it in the patent? Unless, of course, they had extra coding in place to prevent freezes and memory issues. That would be the only way a hot-swap could be made to work.

So, my mission (or part of my mission, anyway ) is to find a way of making Banjo-Kazooie (which ought to be fully SnS-enabled) NOT freeze upon the cart removal. I have tried various things like swapping carts during the intro, in Sharkfood Island, while viewing the SnS menu, and so on, to see if swapping while the cart may be expecting a swap will make it behave differently. So far, 100% freezes. But if someone can find a condition that will make BK not freeze when pulled, we can prove that Rare had special programming in place to facilitate hotswapping...

Does anyone have any ideas of things to try, or want to volunteer to try some stuff themselves?
I just may know of one condition that might work. Looking back at figure six in the patent we know this...

Step one: When you turn on the N64 it will first check to make sure a cartridge is connected to the system. If no, repeat step one until cartridge is connected to the console. If there is a cartridge connected continue to step 2.

Step two: Has trigger event occured (This could be different depending upon which game you are playing. In BT, it could be pulling a lever to play some cutscene, while in Bk you would collect an egg or the ice key.) If no, keep checking until trigger event has occured. If yes, set a flag in the memory(RDRAM) and move on to step three.

Step three: Now the N64 will check to see if the game cartridge is removed. If no, then repeat step two. If yes, then move onto step four. (Keep in mind that no cartridge is connected at this time.)

Step four: Now the N64 will check to see if there is another game cartridge connected to the console. If no, then keep checking until there is one. If yes, then have that cartridge read and utilize the trigger memory that was placed there by the other game. Repeat steps two through four indefinetly.

So what does this tell us. It seems that the first time you startup BT (without it being swapped yet), it will only search for a trigger event that will place the needed memory into the RDRAM, (possibly even the data needed for BT to not freeze up, vice versa for bk(remember we werent suppose to collect the eggs until BT puts the code in memory for BK to access)and DK64. However most of this was probably removed but I personally dont know. Anyways, it looks like there should be code somewhere in BK that will check for these trigger events in BK upon execution, thats how SNS works(Bt would also check for trigger events left by BK upon execution as well. Do you think that upon collecting an egg that BK will leave a pointer somewhere in memory for BT to access? I dont know how we will find it but we could brainstorm a little.

Ahh yes, the Ice key text in DK64, was this the game Rare used to test the function of SNS? Quite possibly, there could be a pointer in there that tells BK to change the variable of the ice key door to its opened stage. Of course there would be no cut-scenes or need for an ice key in dk. They could have used any object to test its functionality(unless they were going to literally swap the whole ice-key object code over to BK which is unecessary). So what im saying is that there may be some swappable "form" of SNS between BK and DK64. I will need to look into this a little further and get some feedback before I could confidently say its in their. Keep in mind that Rare could have erased its tracks from memory, but we dont know that yet.


 

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