twilight search ( please read all )

[StevethemasterX]

maybe

now when i think over my gamecube SNS discovery i wonder if both nintendo and rareware had the same idea.

[runehero123]

Originally Posted by foxmcbanjo

Why wont it work with Tooie? Try it with DK64. It has lots 'o RAM. Actually, I'll try it.

It works with banjo kazooie, I tested it in the blue sns room, and the game will load up if you set the rom's memory to 8mb (expansion pack). Most save states will load off of tooie, but I can't get tooie to load off of them...

Originally Posted by mikehive

When you collect an SnS item, a value in the format XXYY is written to memory. This same memory slot is used for all SnS items, and if you collect the Pink egg and then the Ice Key, the record of the Key collection will overwrite the record of the Pink Egg (in RAM I presume, not on the cart's EEPROM (?) ).

Yes the format XX(sns item number), YY(on/off) is written to memory. However, it is not in the same memory slot. They around the same area of code. Take for example this picture. It shows data after you have collected the ice key. Now here is an example when you collect the blue egg after getting the ice key. Notice how the blue egg is written into the position where the ice key was and that the ice key is moved down 2 addresses in memory. In other words regardless of what order you collect the items, the game will always write them in sequential order of their item number. These are indeed being written into the ram. The rom does not read from these addresses, it only writes data to them.

Originally Posted by MikeHive

If all of the above is exactly what you are saying, and this data is indeed written into RAM not ROM, what happens if you reset the game?

Okay, here is what I know. Once you reset the game, the rom will not start writing to these addresses until just after the dragonfly in the 'N' scene at the beginning flies past the screen. I will get a screenie of this in a couple mins.

If you collect the Ice Key and the data is written to RAM, what happens when you reboot the N64?

Ok, so we know there is an address in game that will tell the Rom that you have collected one of the secret items, I think they call it "Unlock all secrets cheat". This would be the address that writes to the ROM when you collect an egg or ice key. The Rom will then read this info, and write the other values to memory that I have mentioned above.

[MikeHive]

So, BK is, from a starting point of 1 or 2 seconds after the game boots, constantly writing SnS data into RAM, right? What's more that memory address seems to be sitting in the middle of all the memory addresses and not at either extremety, which seems significant to me...

Runehero, you are making great progress with this and I would like to chat with you more privately. Do you have AIM?

[runehero123]

Originally Posted by MikeHive

So, BK is, from a starting point of 1 or 2 seconds after the game boots, constantly writing SnS data into RAM, right? What's more that memory address seems to be sitting in the middle of all the memory addresses and not at either extremety, which seems significant to me...

It starts writing sns code at about this time ,actually about 15ms later when the smoke trail starts dissapearing. (Just before the 'N' shrugs it's shoulders.)

Originally Posted by MikeHive

Runehero, you are making great progress with this and I would like to chat with you more privately. Do you have AIM?

I had one but I can't remember the username. But I can make a new one really quick.

The data is written in a chunk of memory in the ram. Some of these values seem to go crazy when you go to different parts of the game. I don't know what causes it. I guess it's because the game needs that address for something else. Right now though, I've been trying to use the "command" debug tool(in nemu64) to find the address in memory that the game reads from that tells it to start writing these values to the memory. The thing is, there has to be some shortcut, because im not about to go through 10,000 commands to get to that address.

================================================== ======================
Wow, the patent covered alot more than I thought. It is clear to me now that figure "6" IS definetly the method, and that at one point the ice key in banjo kazooie would unlock the blocked icy cave in Donkey Kong 64. Dont believe me? Read the 10th page of the patent starting at where it explains figure 6 VERY slowly. Here is the link: http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=E...&QPN=US6820265
Looks like you could swap the cartridges at anytime during BK. Oh, and btw it says behind the blocked icy cave would be a new area. So its not the ice vault in BT. Thats different.

[MikeHive]

Well, I see what you're driving at, but I do think they probably made the examples in the patent more generalised for ease of explanations and to demonstrate a broad principle. I don't know if we can draw specifics like that.

[runehero123]

Well, from what we've collected so far. It seems to make the most sense. Notice how fig.6 is the only example they use the ice-key in. What it would mean is that you wouldn't have to go to some secret room in the game. You could swap anytime after you collect the key. Fig.3 from reading the info shows the method of Cold-Swapping. And I believe Fig.2 referrs to video games meant for computer. With hot-swapping you dont have to swap in 30 secs, you'd probably have unlimited time to swap.

[collecter]

Then is it possible to safely swap carts between BK and DK? Can anyone make instructions and/or test this, or is it too incomplete/unstable?

[runehero123]

Originally Posted by collecter

Then is it possible to safely swap carts between BK and DK? Can anyone make instructions and/or test this, or is it too incomplete/unstable?

Not neccassarily, DK may read this info, however we would not detect this unless we know precisely the area of code DK reads from. As stated in the patent it is the part in memory universally accessible by any ROM. How it would have been done in DK64 is Donkey Kong would go up to one of those levers(its a move you learn in Frantic Factory) and he would pull it, probably somewhere in the Crystal caverns area. Then it would show a cut-scene of the icy cave opened in BK. Now whenever you feel like it you would take out the DK64 cart while the N64 was still on, and could swap for BK. Banjo kazooie would then execute from the start, and when you go to the ice cave, it would be open. Now when you collect the ice key and swap back to DK64, you would have it and could access the area past the blocked icy cave. Many people seem to have this confused with the Big icy CHEST that the glowbo was in. We know that the ice-key was going to be used in DK64. Its there in memory, and its there in the patent. I dont think there was a move where banjo could pull a lever anyways.

To answer your question, no we cannot safely swap BK with DK64(yet). We still need to look further into this and figure out how SNS works in BK.

================================================== ====================
Let me start by analyzing figure 6 in the patent, this will take some time and I will keep it updated.

Originally Posted by patent

Fig. 6 is a flow diagram that illustrates the steps performed by one embodiment of information between first and second programs formed in accordance with this invention.

In other words figure 6 shows how data between two video games can be shared by one embodiment of information (RAM pack).

Originally Posted by patent

As the present invention is ideally suitable for a video game system, the following discussion of steps illustrated in FIG. 6 will provide a specific example of this embodiment of the invention as it applies to a video game system.

To put this short, Rare wanted to use swapping data between BK and DK64 as an example to explain how figure 6 (AKA hot/cold swapping) works, and how it applies to the N64.

Originally Posted by patent

Beginning with a step 50, a test is made to determine wether a first game cartridge is connected to a video game console. If a first game cartridge is not connected, the system continues to check for one as shown in FIG. 6.

So when you turn on the N64 it will test to make sure there is a game cartridge connected to the console. If its not then the console continues checking until one is connected.

Originally Posted by patent

On the other hand, if a first game cartridge containing programming information for a first video game program is connected to the console, the processor acts under contol of the first video game program.

So if a cartridge is detected(in this case we will use DK64, the N64 will start reading data from it.
it.

Originally Posted by patent

Then, at a step 52, the video game system determines wether a trigger event has occured indicating the existence of information for storage in a universally accessible location to memory. Fir example, while playing the first video game (DK64) a player may reach a certain stage (Crystal Caverns?), where the player may reach a certain stage in the first video game(dk64) where the player recognizes a common feature from a second video game (BK). (Which the player has obviously played before). As an example, the player may come across a "Huge Blocked Icy Cave of the first video game(DK64). At the side of the huge Blocked Icy Cave is a lever. The player pulls the lever and a "cut-cam" shows a section from the second video game stored on a second game cartridge(BK). This cut-cam may reveal a door access to a "Big Icy Key". If the player remembered playing the second video game, the player may have seen this area that could not have been accessed at that time. In this example the trigger event occurs when the lever is pulled.

Yes that is alot to read. Here is how to narrow it down so that it makes sense. Okay so pretend your in DK64 stollin through crystal caverns. You come upon a blocked icy cave, with a lever next to it. You realize you need to get Donkey Kong and use his special move to pull the lever. When you pull it, the game automatically stores a flag into a part of the memory that any game can access indicating that you pulled the lever. It shows you a cut-scene of the Door blocking the ice-key in Banjo Kazooie being removed. If you have never played BK before, or havent seen that area in game, you wouldn't know that you would have to swap games to get it. So basically the formula is Dk pull lever -> set flag in memory -> play cut-scene.

Originally Posted by patent

If the system determines that a trigger event has not occured, it continues to query for such trigger events as shown in FIG. 6. However, if the system determines that a trigger event has occured, the processor then writes information pertaining to the trigger event into its memory. In this regard, the processor sets a flag indicating the occurence of the event, I.E. that the door to access the Big Icy Key in the first video game has been opened, as shown at step 54.

If you did not pull the lever next to the icy cave, the game(dk64) will wait until you do before writing a flag into memory that will tell Banjo Kazooie to open the ice door leading to the ice-key.

Originally Posted by patent

Then, at a step 56, the system tests for whether the first game cartridge has been removed. If not, processing returns to step 52, and the steps described above are repeated.

After pulling the lever and viewing the cut-scene, the N64 will continue to check if the game cartridge is removed. If not it keeps checking if other trigger events occur that could set a flag in memory, why because there could be other items you want to collect or things you want to do before you swap.

Originally Posted by patent

If it has been removed, the system tests for wether the second game cartridge has been connected to the console at a step 58. If no connection has been made, the system continues to make this query.

If game cartridge is removed, the N64 will wait for the user to insert the second game cartridge (BK).

Originally Posted by patent

If the second game cartridge is connected, the proccessor 12 executes the second video game program and also reads and utilizes, if applicable, any trigger events stored in the memory at a step 60.

If banjo kazooie is connected, the N64 will execute it and check for any trigger events from DK64 or BT.

The following is an example of the second program (Banjo Kazooie obviously) being executed after swapping from DK64.

Originally Posted by patent

For example, once a player inserts the second data cartridge containing the second video game he remembers playing, the player can go into the area of the game that had the Big Icy Key. Once in that area, the player would see that the door had been opened and would be able to get the key.

Once you insert BK (after swapping from DK64 and pulling the lever), you will now have access to the ice-key.

Here is the technical explanation of what happens:

Originally Posted by patent

After the video game system reads and utilizes, if applicable, the flagged information stored in memory at step 60, processing returns to step 52 and the steps described above are repeated, permitting the second game cartridge to store information in memory for retrieval by the first or other game cartridge.

Once, the N64 reads the info that the ice door has been opened in BK, it will then allow BK to write a flag to memory once you collect the ice-key to be accessed by DK64.

Originally Posted by patent

Thus, in accordance with the above example, once the player retrieves the key in the second video game(BK), the processor sets another flag in memory to signal that the Big Icy Key has been recovered from the First game cartridge (DK64)

Basically what I said above

Originally Posted by patent

If the player removes the second game cartridge(BK) from the console(n64) and replaces it with the first game cartridge(DK64), the player will be able to return to the huge blocked icy cave with the icy keyhole and open the sealed cave with the Big Icy Key that has been recovered from the second game cartridge(BK). Thus, the player is now able to access this new area beyond the icy cave.

Well, that pretty much explains that it is not referring to the ice-vault in banjo-tooie. A new area(possibly in Crystal Cavern's(the patent mentions the cave is within a level) would've been unlocked in DK64.

Originally Posted by patent

As exemplified above, the data sharing system of the present invention not only provides for the sharing of information from one program with another stored on the same or a seperate data storage medium, but also provides for the interaction between the programs.

This quote is talking about all the different data methods, so dont get confused and think its talking about fig.6. BK wasnt meant to be a stackable. It was either hot/cold swapped.

================================================== ======================
So there you have it. Now if a cut-scene of BK's icy cavern is located in DK64's rom, it could be one of the freeze digits (if there are any, not sure). Same with the ice-key.

[BanjoPL]

Great idea runehero123!
Notice that Rare's patent released in June 1999...only five months before Donkey Kong 64's released.
So patent suggest that BK-DK64 connection worked/works via hot swapping?
I wonder about sandcastle codes in BK.Why did Rare include way in BK for collecting ice key without swapping data from DK64?

[runehero123]

The sandcastle codes were to test the functionality of SNS in BK, without having to swap with other carts. However, when you enter the code, it may place a flag in memory to imitate the cart being swapped(Rare could use this to test where the flag would have to be written.). If so, I will be able to find it pretty easily.

So what do we know so far:
flag is set in memory (DRAM) when you collect ice-key [x]
No secret areas needed in BK for swapping [x]
Evidence of Ice key in DK64 [x]
Also, an Ice key in BT [x]

[BanjoPL]

Please try this:
-use ONLY sandcastle code for ice key,then collect ice key and next try cold/hot swapping to DK64
-use ONLY sandcastle code for red egg,then collect egg and next try cold/hot swapping to BT

Post your results...

[Fox McBanjo]

Rune, you may be the new RWHero. I would try the Sandcastle Codes, like BanjoPL said. They seem to be the most obvious things to have the 'fake flag'.

Once you input a SC code, doesn't it still show you where the area is when you put it in again? If so, then that means that DK64 AND BT could of had some of the same code implanted, for players that didn't have one of the games. If so, then searching for similar didgits within BT and DK64's memorys could turn fruitful.

[BanjoPL]

Well...i collected ice key and all eggs in Banjo-Kazooie but i will test this:
1.I will type sandcastle code for red egg.
2.Then captain's'cabin will be show.
(without egg of course)
3.Hot/cold swapping to Banjo-Tooie.

[collecter]

When you mensioned a lever in DK I thought of the levers in Fungus Forest and how you can enter the code for a gold bannana. Is it possible to see if they have another combo which may have triggered the ice key wall's disapearance?

[runehero123]

we will see soon enough