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  #31  
Old 11th April 2016, 04:46 AM
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Dylan Yoshi Dylan Yoshi is offline
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Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
wind waker is the best example of link's character, because it's the only zelda game where link has much of an actual character with a strong personality. it's also an example of a game that wouldn't really need to have much changes made to it if there was a gender option, i think
No, Wind Waker is the best example because it's the most blatant and least subtle in showing any degree of personality.

In Ocarina of Time you find out immediately that Link would rather sleep all day than go out and play, and with good reason. Mido, the leader of the Kokiri, makes fun of him for not having a fairy. Saria is the only Kokiri that is implied to even be close friends with Link. When Link leaves the forest and meets Saria on the bridge, he backs away awkwardly before running away, showing that he doesn't know how to or even want to say goodbye.

In Skyward Sword, Link is depicted as being a big dreamer, he always has his head in the clouds as Groose puts it. His interactions with Groose and Zelda give you a clear sense of what his personality is like at any given moment, as well as his dialogue options.

On that subject, I find it very difficult to believe that Groose would interact with Link in anywhere near a similar way if he was female. Similarly, I don't think Ilia would have interacted with Link in the same way either. The games are written with a male character in mind, and just providing the option without making significant changes wouldn't do the female character justice, and it would require gender-neutral story to be written, which would further limit the male character.

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Originally Posted by Jinjonator View Post
Which one of those personality traits is supposed to preclude Link being female though? There's no correlation between this argument and the conclusion you're arriving at.

Gender has never been an important part of who Link is as a person, and as many people have already said, Link has always functioned as a mostly blank slate for the player to act through, so it's fascinating to see people suddenly acting like Link has actually always been this wildly complex masterfully written 3-dimensional character, where changing his gender has massive far-reaching implications for his character. Changing, say, Donald Draper to Donna Draper would be a seismic change that would change the fabric of the character and the story; changing Link to Linkle? Not so much.
You just took everything I said out of context. I was responding to Yiffgurl's comments that Link is meant to represent the player, and I was making an argument to specifically disprove that. The conclusion from the post you quoted is that Link is not an avatar for the player, and is a character of his own, which validates the prior point I made about the Gerudo.

I also never claimed he was a wildly complex masterfully written 3-dimensional character, what I'm saying is that he's more than a blank slate. That is a fact, a blank slate character would be one like the main character of Pokemon who doesn't react to anything, who doesn't have any background. This is exactly what I was trying to prove with my previous examples- That Link is not a blank slate.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.
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  #32  
Old 11th April 2016, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Esteban Colberto View Post
My REAL oponion: One could conceivably argue that Link is a total playa, especially in Ocarina of Time. This is pretty strongly correlated to how much penis he has and his testosterone level. He gets the mad puss. However, if they gave Link a gender option in Ocarina of Time all they'd have to do is make Saria, Malon, and Nabooru MASSIVE lesbians.
hecky eah

e; !!!

Last edited by The Colonel; 11th April 2016 at 05:22 AM. Reason: yeah!!!
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  #33  
Old 11th April 2016, 07:00 AM
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Ok, pointing out how this gender option would affect other Zelda games is absolutely meaningless, because we aren't talking about other Zelda games, because the option for a female Link doesn't exist in other Zelda games, so let's make this simple: stop bringing up how a female Link would detract from other games that don't include the feature or how certain scenes in those other games would be different, and explain how the option for a female Link is going to detract from the game that actually includes a female Link. Because right now, your argument literally makes as much sense as me saying "Super Mario World shouldn't include the Double Mario power-up, because it wouldn't have worked in Super Mario Bros and they would've had to change Super Mario Bros." How will female Link detract, not from Ocarina of Time, not from Skyward Sword, not from Wind Waker, but from this game? I'm genuinely curious to know what your reasoning is, but so far, again, you've only explained how the feature wouldn't work in every other Zelda game except the one it's in.
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  #34  
Old 11th April 2016, 07:06 AM
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Esteban Colberto Esteban Colberto is offline
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Dylan Yoshi... Of course Link is an avatar for the player. The developers have constantly said as much. He simply has affectations of personality so you know whose boots you, as the player, are getting into. An avatar doesn't have to be a blank slate. He's not a stick-man, he's a courageous elf-boy warrior, and the point is you're supposed to want to be and feel like you *are that*. If he's your idea of a fully-formed character I suggest you read a novel. About Groose... even assuming he wouldn't act that way with a girl, there's no reason why they couldn't write new characters just as compelling (and hopefully moreso, Groose is vastly overrated in my opinion). It worked for Mass Effect.
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  #35  
Old 11th April 2016, 07:12 AM
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I mean, I hear people when they say Link is iconic... but only because we made him iconic. Why is Wind Waker Link iconic? They took a well-established Link image and turned it into a ridiculous cartoon boy with disproportionate limbs. God forbid we even have the *option* to change his gender. If Zelda U is good and has a female Link, she will be iconic. Woop de doo.

Beyond that, all anyone can argue with is conjecture about how the writing might take a hit because they might have to put effort into writing scenarios applicable to both sexes which... isn't really much of a leg to stand on in my submission.
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  #36  
Old 11th April 2016, 07:18 AM
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the obvious solution for skyward sword when they go back in time and add in the gender option to the final release is to have a toggle wherein playing as a girl changes groose and his friends from a band of bullies to a band of upper-class rich girls who laugh at those below their social status

design-wise they will look functionally the same but with fancy hairstyles, make-up and the very latest in fashion
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  #37  
Old 11th April 2016, 07:33 AM
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"But imagine how much better it would be with Hyrulean gender roles?"
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  #38  
Old 11th April 2016, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjonator View Post
Ok, pointing out how this gender option would affect other Zelda games is absolutely meaningless, because we aren't talking about other Zelda games, because the option for a female Link doesn't exist in other Zelda games, so let's make this simple: stop bringing up how a female Link would detract from other games that don't include the feature or how certain scenes in those other games would be different, and explain how the option for a female Link is going to detract from the game that actually includes a female Link. Because right now, your argument literally makes as much sense as me saying "Super Mario World shouldn't include the Double Mario power-up, because it wouldn't have worked in Super Mario Bros and they would've had to change Super Mario Bros." How will female Link detract, not from Ocarina of Time, not from Skyward Sword, not from Wind Waker, but from this game? I'm genuinely curious to know what your reasoning is, but so far, again, you've only explained how the feature wouldn't work in every other Zelda game except the one it's in.
The writers have three choices for the story of this game, given a female character option.
1. Write the story from a purely gender-neutral perspective.
2. Write the story from the perspective of one of the two genders, and simply flip pronouns for the other without paying any regard to how much sense it makes.
3. Write two very different variations of the same story for both genders.

I'll start by reiterating that I am all for number 3. If Nintendo goes that extra distance and does this, I have no complaints. This is the same route that Persona 3 Portable took, and it was a much better game for it. With that said, I really don't think Nintendo is going to go the extra mile with this one, it's going to exponentially increase the amount of work the writers and localization team have to do and I'm not entirely confident they'd be willing to make that happen. Feel free to pose some counter-arguments to this because I really want to believe that Nintendo WOULD do this.

1 simply limits creativity. They wouldn't be able to create potentially really interesting characters that interact with the protagonist differently. As mentioned before, Groose is an example of a beloved character who just wouldn't be as fun if he were written to accommodate for a gender-neutral script. I'm not saying every game NEEDS characters like that, but to restrict the writing to accommodate for that is unnecessary. Furthermore, it limits Link's OWN interactions with other characters by making him far more of an avatar and less of a character of his own. The problem isn't that they can't write a good story that's gender neutral, the problem is that there's more potential for interesting interactions from both Link and NPC's if it isn't gender neutral.

I shouldn't have to explain why I don't want number 2 to be the case, but it'll result in a game where one gender is blatantly superior to the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esteban Colberto View Post
Of course Link is an avatar for the player. The developers have constantly said as much. He simply has affectations of personality so you know whose boots you, as the player, are getting into. An avatar doesn't have to be a blank slate. He's not a stick-man, he's a courageous elf-boy warrior, and the point is you're supposed to want to be and feel like you *are that*. If he's your idea of a fully-formed character I suggest you read a novel. About Groose... even assuming he wouldn't act that way with a girl, there's no reason why they couldn't write new characters just as compelling (and hopefully moreso, Groose is vastly overrated in my opinion). It worked for Mass Effect.
Link has some aspects of an avatar, and some aspects of a character of his own. He's not purely one or the other and I don't expect that to ever be the case. I've already said that he works well as a character you can project yourself onto, but that has to do with his relatability, not his lack of character. I don't know when I gave you the impression that I think he's a fully-formed character, but he's a lot more of a character than most avatar characters and I want him to stay that way. It's difficult to relate to a character like Pokemon Trainer Red because he's a complete blank slate. It's not difficult to relate to Link, because he has plenty of personality beyond being easy to project yourself onto.

Sure, they could write new compelling characters from a gender-neutral standpoint, but they'd be unable to write compelling characters from a gender-specific standpoint. Without the option, both are possible.

Also, this isn't completely relevant, but it's worth noting that the folks at Nintendo have stated that Ocarina of Time is a story about growing up. It's not just about being a cool action hero like you say, it's about experiencing what Link does through his perspective. Link is a tool used to explore the central themes of whatever game he's currently in. In OOT, this means growing into an adult and taking responsibility (among many other examples, not properly understanding Ruto's proposal as a child and then discovering that he's actually hurt her as an adult).
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  #39  
Old 11th April 2016, 03:45 PM
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persona 3 portable changed things up a lot for the female option because persona 3 is a game built entirely around social interactions and dynamics and as such the way you interact with characters demands for it to change the way they view you. zelda is an action adventure game with parts where you talk to people.

if nintendo wants to write compelling characters from a gender-specific standpoint then i'm totally okay with them not implementing a gender option, but if they are going to implement a gender option then i don't think things being more gender neutral is going to negatively affect the quality of the writing nearly as much as you're saying it is. maybe it means they won't be able to do certain things, but those are limited to pretty specific examples you're giving, and if the story they've written doesn't depend on those gender-specific bits of writing, there shouldn't be any big problem with it

Last edited by The Colonel; 11th April 2016 at 03:50 PM.
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  #40  
Old 11th April 2016, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Yoshi View Post
1 simply limits creativity. They wouldn't be able to create potentially really interesting characters that interact with the protagonist differently. As mentioned before, Groose is an example of a beloved character who just wouldn't be as fun if he were written to accommodate for a gender-neutral script. I'm not saying every game NEEDS characters like that, but to restrict the writing to accommodate for that is unnecessary. Furthermore, it limits Link's OWN interactions with other characters by making him far more of an avatar and less of a character of his own. The problem isn't that they can't write a good story that's gender neutral, the problem is that there's more potential for interesting interactions from both Link and NPC's if it isn't gender neutral.
I don't understand this line of thought at all. Nintendo hasn't shown us anything about the game yet. (And no, the E3 "trailers" don't count, just look at the first Banjo NaB footage before the game came out.) There are countless games that provide a gender choice to the player that is interchangeable, with the story still having meaning. (See Mass Effect.) Wait until we at least have a real trailer before you write them off.

I also don't see anything about Link's character that requires Link to be male either. Again, I haven't played most of the 3D Zeldas, but is Link going around laying pipe in some game that I haven't noticed? If it matters that much to you, just pick the male option and call him Link. That way if the story is the same, your experience literally is what you want it to.
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  #41  
Old 11th April 2016, 05:11 PM
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IMO Nintendo shouldn't have even mentioned female Link as a possibility, then no one would be so passionately in favor of it. People will jump at anything to prove gender equality this these days.

Link has always been a male in every story. Sure, you can change that but it doesn't mean you should. Just like Mario shouldn't be female or Samus shouldn't be male. Like, where does it stop? If its okay to make Link gender neutral then whats stopping them from converting other flagship characters down the line? If every character has a male/female option in the future we won't have any more unique characters or interactions unless we go elder scrolls style with multiple dialogue options and even that is stretching it for uniqueness.
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  #42  
Old 11th April 2016, 06:05 PM
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The Colonel The Colonel is offline
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Quote:
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IMO Nintendo shouldn't have even mentioned female Link as a possibility, then no one would be so passionately in favor of it. People will jump at anything to prove gender equality this these days.

Link has always been a male in every story. Sure, you can change that but it doesn't mean you should. Just like Mario shouldn't be female or Samus shouldn't be male. Like, where does it stop? If its okay to make Link gender neutral then whats stopping them from converting other flagship characters down the line? If every character has a male/female option in the future we won't have any more unique characters or interactions unless we go elder scrolls style with multiple dialogue options and even that is stretching it for uniqueness.
so you're saying that if nintendo decides to give the option to make link a girl, people will start demanding we get a female version of waluigi and male versions of princess daisy and mother brain

hell, i can support this future. i've always wanted to see princess daisy as a shirtless bara supermodel man

Last edited by The Colonel; 11th April 2016 at 06:10 PM.
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  #43  
Old 11th April 2016, 06:24 PM
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japan doesn't have remotely the same outlook on the idea of gender equality in games, it's nothing like the current western view that games should accomodate women as much as men, we have completely different cultural philosophies - look at interviews with japanese developers on the subject and you'll see what i mean

the decision to make a playable female link is definitely not one rooted in a feminist agenda
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  #44  
Old 11th April 2016, 06:39 PM
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as a person who tries to steer very far away from those kinds of arguments for a variety of reasons including not wanting to get stressed out over it anymore, i just think a female link would be a neat thing to have and wouldn't require too much to be done given the story framework of the series

obviously, the same is not quite true of super mario bros., but also nobody is arguing for it in super mario bros. and probably nobody ever will, outside of wanting to play as peach or daisy

Last edited by The Colonel; 11th April 2016 at 06:42 PM.
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  #45  
Old 11th April 2016, 09:12 PM
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