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Banjo Theories & Stop 'n' Swop SNS? Bottle's Revenge? Share your thoughts on the mysteries of the Banjo series and discuss the new Stop 'n' Swop features in Nuts and Bolts and the XBLA games

 
 
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  #1  
Old 15th July 2008, 07:39 PM
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How can we even know that Stop'n'Swop ever existed in the first place?

The long version. (short version below)
Last night, I dreamed that I found Stop'n'Swop. It was so ridiculously out in the open that I couldn't believe I was the first one to find it. A cellar door in Grunty's Lair where the Ice Key would insert itself, leading to a secret area. This area was a small beach cove, with a very square-shaped land structure. The water was semi-translucent, but its surface had a pixellated texture of all the surface grime, animated in two frames. There was a single tree on the island, and a large, beached whale (about twice the size of Klungo) who appeared to be sunbathing. There were also some pirate-looking enemies running around, but none of them were paying attention to Banjo at all. The most odd thing about this little island, however, was that it seemed to be boxed in only a few yards off of each shoreline, a sunny beach background painted on its walls. As I explored the little zone, I couldn't help but feel that the whole thing was half-assed and incomplete. "Rare must have canned SnS before they finished the secret level" I thought to myself.

When I woke up, it didn't take me long to realize that I had been dreaming, and I started thinking. First, I thought about what a colossal dork I must be for dreaming about being the first to find SnS. Then I thought about the secret level in my dream. It was incredibly small. But then again, why would Rare program a whole, giant level with ten more missions as a service to B-K Veterans? The whole idea of having an epic secret level seemed ridiculous, especially seeing as not everybody would have the chance to appreciate it.

So then I thought about what else SnS could be, and I couldn't think of anything that was so amazingly epic, but at the same time not a colossal waste for the developers. Then the idea hit me. Maybe Rare couldn't think of it either. We know that Rare completed the half of SnS that's in B-K, but how do we know they even started work on the half that was in B-T? How do we know that they would have even thought of what to put in the game before they realized "Guys, we can't do this"?

It seems that since the eggs-and-key codes, we haven't found much more that gives us a clue as to what SnS really was. All of the "secret" levels we speculated on were given explanations. Hammerhead Beach was simply a working title for Treasure Trove Cove. Mt. Fire Eyes, (the Giant's Lair?) and Fungus Forest were canned Beta levels that were recycled to create levels in B-T and DK64, respectively. Bottles' Revenge was probably nothing more than a canned extra mode of play, just like the "play as Tootie because Banjo was turned into a frog" mode that was supposed to be tagged to the end of B-K. After all that, what are we left with? The little torch guy? Is he the last living entity of SnS64? Doubtful.

My theory is that Rare thought of the concept of SnS before they thought of what to do with it. They thought to link the two games together, they got their precious patent, they programmed all of the keys in the first game to await their sandcastle codes, but from there, they were lost. They couldn't think of, what, eight amazing features? Eight amazing features that wouldn't be a waste of their own time. Hell, I couldn't. Eventually, they realized that Nintendo was making revisions to the N64 and that SnS couldn't really work, so they just threw in a few extras and called it a day.

(tl;dr?) The short version.
How can we know that Rare even started work on Stop'n'Swop for Banjo-Tooie before the idea was canned? Furthermore, to those who think SnS could have unlocked a secret level, why would it make sense for Rare to nix an entire level just because SnS was canned?

Last edited by Comrade Bear; 16th July 2008 at 01:17 AM. Reason: The short version didn't specify my point of view on the "secret level" thing


  #2  
Old 15th July 2008, 07:44 PM
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We already know this all to be true... You're totally right, and I agree with you. But I thought we all knew that...

BK had the items and the codes to find them. Rare had no idea what they would unlock, only that it would be something and that you would learn the sandcastle codes in Banjo-Tooie. But then Nintendo screwed it up, and they didn't finish (or barely even start) the BT half of SNS. Right? So then they addeed the BK Game Paks as a revision that appeased those who finished the game with 100 Jiggies and learned about the items (but didn't learn that the codes to find the items were hacked out of the game).

Also, notice that Mumbo only showed you a few of the SNS items from the most interesting hiding places. Rare might not have even been sure how many prizes there would be at all.

And I really doubt they planned to Use any secret levels as the SNS prizes.
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Last edited by Mister Mxyzptlk; 15th July 2008 at 07:50 PM.


  #3  
Old 15th July 2008, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Mxyzptlk View Post
We already know this all to be true... You're totally right. But I thought we all knew that...

BK had the items and the codes to find them. Rare had no idea what they would unlock, only that it would be something and that you would learn the sandcastle codes in Banjo-Tooie. But then Nintendo screwed it up, and they didn't finish (or barely even start) the BT half of SNS. Right? So then they addeed the BK Game Paks as a revision that appeased those who finished the game with 100 Jiggies and learned about the items (but didn't learn that the codes to find the items were hacked out of the game).

And I really doubt they planned to Use any secret levels as the SNS prizes.
I guess that's the point I was trying to make, yes (thank you for aiding me, I had some trouble reaching it). I know everyone knew that the paks were added to appease players, but basically I've seen alot of people who seem to think that SnS would have yielded secret levels or something amazing, and I wanted to state how unlikely that sounds when you step back. I mean, in addition to the fact that if what we are saying is true, then there is nothing SnS-related in B-T that isn't in plain sight.

Also, you do make a good point. The eggs Mumbo showed us do seem to be in the only really theatrical hiding places. Then again, showing us all of the eggs would take away all the mystery, as well as take up way too much time for one easter egg.

Last edited by Comrade Bear; 15th July 2008 at 07:58 PM.


  #4  
Old 15th July 2008, 09:22 PM
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Wow, I never thought of it like that. Good job! Then again I really don't care about SNS anymore lol. Theories has got me burnt out and the fighting has gotten ridiculous.
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  #5  
Old 15th July 2008, 11:07 PM
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A theory actually worth reading. You have my most sincere congratulations, good sir.


  #6  
Old 15th July 2008, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Bear
(tl;dr?) The short version.
How can we know that Rare even started work on Stop'n'Swop for Banjo-Tooie before the idea was canned? Furthermore, why would it make sense for Rare to can an entire level just because SnS was canned?
1. We know because there are remenants of it in BT, and because they told us that they dropped it very late in production.
2. There was a full level planned since... when?


  #7  
Old 16th July 2008, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox McBanjo View Post
1. We know because there are remenants of it in BT, and because they told us that they dropped it very late in production.
2. There was a full level planned since... when?
Okay... Well at least for the second part, that was the point. So many people keep saying "Oh if you find SNS hidden in the wall textures, you can get Giant's Lair!!!!" Comrade is doubting that along with us.
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  #8  
Old 16th July 2008, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox McBanjo View Post
1. We know because there are remenants of it in BT, and because they told us that they dropped it very late in production.
2. There was a full level planned since... when?
1. Are there any remnants in B-T that we know are specifically SnS related? Aside from the cartridges and all, I didn't mean that replacement bit they gave us. If there are, could you tell me what we found? I thought I knew all of the details as of late but there's always a chance that something slipped my mind.
1.5. Ah, that "late in production" thing puts a bit of a hole in my theory. It doesn't seem much like Rare would hide that, I guess...then again, "late in production" doesn't necessarily mean that they were late into SnS production, just the game's production. After all, I'd think the un-secret features would be a lot more important than the ones that nobody would see. In addition, they could have also been talking about production of the trigger that sent/recieved items. It's much easier to remove/hide programming code than it is a physical entity, after all. (at least that's the impression Rare seems to give.)
2. I think Mister M. did a good job explaining that one, I'll thank him again for helping me put my thoughts into coherent words for the rest of you. Really, that was my fault for not elaborating which side I was on in the short version.

Last edited by Comrade Bear; 16th July 2008 at 01:14 AM. Reason: Spelling errors!


  #9  
Old 16th July 2008, 04:51 AM
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You're very welcome!

Oh, and while that "late into production thing" is true, I was pretty sure that it only meant "late into the development of Banjo-Tooie." If it were late into the development of SNS, then it would have been harder to remove pieces of it freom BT. Which brings me to my second point, Fox...What confirmed remnants of SNS have we found in BT?
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  #10  
Old 16th July 2008, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Bear
1. Are there any remnants in B-T that we know are specifically SnS related? Aside from the cartridges and all, I didn't mean that replacement bit they gave us. If there are, could you tell me what we found? I thought I knew all of the details as of late but there's always a chance that something slipped my mind.
1. The Base Egg (the eggs you collected in Banjo-Kazooie). Thats enough right there to prove they had been working on it.

2. They mentioned somewhere(I think mundorare.com) that the "Swap-code" had been implemented at one point. Was later taken out after the N64's RDRAM chip change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Bear
.5. Ah, that "late in production" thing puts a bit of a hole in my theory. It doesn't seem much like Rare would hide that, I guess...then again, "late in production" doesn't necessarily mean that they were late into SnS production, just the game's production. After all, I'd think the un-secret features would be a lot more important than the ones that nobody would see. In addition, they could have also been talking about production of the trigger that sent/recieved items. It's much easier to remove/hide programming code than it is a physical entity, after all. (at least that's the impression Rare seems to give.)
1. The "SNS-Code" was actually implemented into BT at one point. Was later taken out because the newer N64's that were released had RAM chips that couldn't hold data after the system was powered down long enough. Originally you had about...10 - 20 secs to swap, it was reduced to about 3 seconds after the RAM was changed, so...


  #11  
Old 16th July 2008, 06:37 AM
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I stand corrected then. So we know there was SnS-related code and eggs because of the base egg. That still only tells us that Rare had started working on SnS; the receiving end of it, anyway. What we haven't found though are remnants of what SnS really was. Features and unlockables that are confirmed to belong to SnS. And of course, confirming this may be near impossible, I understand, but it's just the point I'm making.

If I may speak in metaphor, we know that Rare built the bridge, but we don't know if there was ever anything on the other side.


  #12  
Old 16th July 2008, 07:29 AM
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Kinda hard to fill in the blanks when we have no tools to do so.


  #13  
Old 16th July 2008, 07:52 AM
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1.Your dream was about Hammerhead Beach in BK
2.We know that Rare try inlcuded SNS in other games...ICE KEY text in DK64 and Base Egg in BT.
3.Recently they said that they included SNS functions in BT before Nintendo nixed them.
4.The infamous secret level idea coming from SNS Whiteboard in Ghoulies.STILL we don't know if Whiteboard was joke or clue...we don't know if this releate to N64 Banjo games or for planned BK/BT remake-BK3 connection on Xbox (Rare said that they started first BK3 idea after GBTG)...the most strange stuff is word ACTIVATE secret level not OPEN or UNLOCK...we just still don't know if SNS would activate secret level in Banjo games on N64 or in planned Banjo games on Xbox or maybe secret level is JUST GREAT JOKE.
5.You have good point.Why Rare canned SNS prizes as they planned for BT? Why they didn't make more eggs in BK paks for unlocking those stuffs? They have 3 eggs for it....cyan,green and red eggs.

Last edited by BanjoPL; 16th July 2008 at 08:50 AM.


  #14  
Old 16th July 2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Wow, I never thought of it like that. Good job! Then again I really don't care about SNS anymore lol. Theories has got me burnt out and the fighting has gotten ridiculous.
The fact is, Rare don't know dick about SnS...
We probably know about as much as they do, we have some very committed hackers who have discovered pretty much everything there is to know about SnS I think...
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  #15  
Old 17th July 2008, 03:40 AM
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That's what I'm getting at, really. I think the reason Rare is so secretive about SnS64 is that it wasn't anything. They didn't know where to go with it so they have nothing to tell us except, "Some of you guys are really close. Some of you."

And yeah, I guess GBTG is the Red Herring that sparked all this controversy. But the fact is, the more attention Rare draws to SnS without revealing the truth, the more appealing it gets. At this point, it seems like it's only a tool to get the Banjo series a whole lot more attention.


 

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existed, exists, levels, secret level, sns


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