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Banjo Theories & Stop 'n' Swop SNS? Bottle's Revenge? Share your thoughts on the mysteries of the Banjo series and discuss the new Stop 'n' Swop features in Nuts and Bolts and the XBLA games

 
 
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  #766  
Old 21st July 2007, 07:19 PM
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Oh yah, forgot to mention those flags aren't switched on during the title screen, probably to prevent people from being able to swap during the title.

Havent, tested if they turn on during the part where mumbo shows you the photo's. Ill do that ASAP.


  #767  
Old 21st July 2007, 07:22 PM
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Don't rush yourself, Rune. We have all the time in the world. Well, if you don't count CK, Duker and dmoss's little 'Surprise' later on...


  #768  
Old 21st July 2007, 07:43 PM
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runehero123 runehero123 is offline
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Ok, so I've uploaded a screen of what I am talking about. You can view it here: (click to enlarge)

http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w...ent=memsns.jpg

I put numbers because I will explain what each of those digits are.

1) This flag is placed upon collecting any of the sns items.

2) When you collect the blue egg, these digits are placed into memory.

3) Changes everytime you collect an sns item.

I will have the saved filter list for artmoney up. In case anyone wants to look at these digits. Also could someone convert those over to gameshark addresses. (not sure how to.)

BTW the digits in that picture change when you pause so here are the 26 addresses so actually convert this one to gameshark please: 1022ac09

Last edited by runehero123; 21st July 2007 at 07:53 PM.


  #769  
Old 21st July 2007, 07:56 PM
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Fox McBanjo Fox McBanjo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runehero123
3) Changes everytime you collect an sns item.
I would assume this would go up with every item you get, no?

What if, by examining these 'flags' and checking with each egg, we may see if the whole 'only 4 eggs are needed' thing is true.


  #770  
Old 21st July 2007, 08:06 PM
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If there was an egg that didn't set a flag in the memory when collected, that would possibly do it.

here are the artmoney files:

http://www.mediafire.com/?1cdyazdsgbw

http://www.mediafire.com/?adt8g81ebzw

Last edited by runehero123; 21st July 2007 at 08:13 PM.


  #771  
Old 22nd July 2007, 12:38 AM
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So the items are not activated in the title?
Thats strange, I remember hearing somewhere that they were activated in the intro.

Good work runehero, keep it up.

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  #772  
Old 22nd July 2007, 12:15 PM
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ill check out some things in banjo kazooie and (a little) in tooie. but my tooie rom is compleatly white textures, i cant stop it, so i would just use the tittle munu...


  #773  
Old 22nd July 2007, 12:20 PM
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^instant warps fix that for me.

---

what it seems like we are dealing with here is that there is an active area for stop n swop to function. stop n swop really has to be completed in BK now (atleast i hope). i'll look into those flags, if you want me to convert it to a GS address i'll do that now.
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  #774  
Old 22nd July 2007, 08:46 PM
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runehero123 runehero123 is offline
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I found out something really intersting. Anyways, listen up. Those digits if you reset the game, bk wont write them to memory until right after the dragonfly flies past the screen in the N intro at the beginning. Right at that moment, I suspect is when the BK cart will check the rdram for digits from BT or DK64 as well. More on this later.

[Questions Edit]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodXP
So the items are not activated in the title?
Thats strange, I remember hearing somewhere that they were activated in the intro.

Good work runehero, keep it up.

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Not exactly, the items may be activated, but the game wont write that you have collected these items into memory, unless you obtained them in the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmcbanjo
I would assume this would go up with every item you get, no?

What if, by examining these 'flags' and checking with each egg, we may see if the whole 'only 4 eggs are needed' thing is true.
Nope, it seems to actually decrease.

Next, I found out more about the flags set in memory. It gets more interesting. Check my edit in about 10-15 minutes.

Last edited by runehero123; 22nd July 2007 at 09:02 PM.


  #775  
Old 22nd July 2007, 09:29 PM
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Can't wait...really, its 11 O'Clock here, I literaly cant wait.


  #776  
Old 22nd July 2007, 09:35 PM
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Ok, well here it is. When I said there was a 01 placed in memory just for collecting any sns item, I mislooked at the data. It looks like the flags that are placed into memory are not put there as 01, but as 0X01. The ice-key is 0601, when you collect it, the bk pack writes it to memory as so:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...icekeyself.jpg

Also, once you collect the blue egg, it is stored in memory as 0301 like so:

http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w...eeggicekey.jpg

Plus, notice how it switches spots with the ice-key.

The first digit 03 seems to be the item number, this is how the other games recognize wich item you have collected, 01 must mean that this item has been collected.


  #777  
Old 22nd July 2007, 09:39 PM
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So if you changed the last number to 0, it would reactivate the item, yeah?


  #778  
Old 22nd July 2007, 09:43 PM
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Ok here is the summary of what I have so far.

1) When you collect one of the SNS items a digit gets placed into memory as XXYY, XX for the item number, and YY for on or off.

2) The item numbers XX is like so:

00 = ??? egg
01 = ??? egg
02 = ??? egg
03 = blue egg
04 = ??? egg
05 = ??? egg
06 = ice key

Havent mapped the ??? eggs yet, probably get around to it today.

3) If you collect the ice key for instance it would read like this 80XXXXXX 0601 and if you dont have it, it would be 0000.

4) After collecting one of these items, and resetting the game, BK will not write the value to memory until just after the dragonfly flies past the intro screen. When it comes to mind, it seems like the dragonfly is some kind of loading bar, that indicates the game is searching for the sns code, which could explain why the N shrugs it's shoulder's if it doesnt find anything. (<Last sentence = theory)

5) We have not converted these values over to gameshark yet. I will get the project64 codes and use mikesgm6's trainer to do it.

6) I found this article while I was surfing the net earlier today. Has to do with the N64 actually being able to swap the carts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rarenet.com
The major obstacle to linking up the two games is the fact that the Nintendo 64 just wasn't designed for it. If you remove the cartridge while a game is in progress, it's going to crash, right?

Not necessarily. Take Wave Race 64, and start a race. Then hold down the reset button and pull out the cartridge. Instead of crashing, the game continues based on the data already loaded into RAM. The reason the music begins to glitch out is because that was still being read from the cartridge. Everything else still works normally, though.

That illustrates that it's not technically infeasible to remove and replace a cartridge from a game in progress. However, if the solution was so simple, why didn't Rare use that to stop 'n' swop Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie?

Well, while there's nothing in the machine, all that data has to go somewhere, and there's nowhere else for it to go other than the console's RAM. And I don't know how much data would have been necessary to safely swap BK and BT, but I suspect that the base Nintendo 64 configuration did not have the RAM to store all the necessary data for those two games. Remember, Wave Race could run without the cart -- but it was one of the first titles released. It was a mere 8 MB cartridge and wasn't nearly as technically complex as BK or BT. So what's the answer?

The Ram Pak.

With the Ram Pak, the N64 would presumably have had enough memory to store whatever information Rare needed it to. So, BT would be shipped with the Ram Pak, and all would be well.

That is, until the Donkey Kong 64 team decided they wanted to use it. This naturally screwed up the marketing plans for BT, and while the extra RAM wasn't at all necessary for BT's normal performance, Rare didn't want such a feature to require extra, non-standard hardware. And since a flagship title like DK64 DID need the Ram Pak to run optimally, they couldn't very well demand it back.

The next step was for the two teams to somehow work out a compromise. At one point, I think that DK64 had a mechanism to link up to either BK, BT or both games. You can see it in this beta screenshot -- you know that freezer with Banjo and Kazooie on the side, in the beta screenshots? It was removed from the final game: why?

I believe that freezer was the gameplay link to BK/BT: if you'd enter it, the software would send the console into a sort of standby mode, allowing the cartidge to be safely removed and swapped. But when it became apparent that the three game Stop 'n' Swop was too complex, complicated, or illogical plot-wise, it was removed from the final version of the game.
That whole, waverace being able to run if you remove the cart while holding down the reset key sounds nice. However, wouldn't you technically be able to do this with Banjo kazooie as well seeing as it doesn't run on an expansion pack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rarenet.com
And I don't know how much data would have been necessary to safely swap BK and BT, but I suspect that the base Nintendo 64 configuration did not have the RAM to store all the necessary data for those two games.
Well, I think he is forgetting something... we don't need that much data to swap the games. Although he has a point, there may have been a small program that boots up when you collect an item or go to the sns menu. What data would have to be stored. Not that much. Some graphic, text, user input code, no sound would be needed, and possibly a program that stores tells the N64 to wait for a cartridge to be loaded. That probably would take up no more than a mb or possibly 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rarenet.com
The next step was for the two teams to somehow work out a compromise. At one point, I think that DK64 had a mechanism to link up to either BK, BT or both games. You can see it in this beta screenshot -- you know that freezer with Banjo and Kazooie on the side, in the beta screenshots? It was removed from the final game: why?

I believe that freezer was the gameplay link to BK/BT: if you'd enter it, the software would send the console into a sort of standby mode, allowing the cartidge to be safely removed and swapped. But when it became apparent that the three game Stop 'n' Swop was too complex, complicated, or illogical plot-wise, it was removed from the final version of the game.
I don't know if I could say the locker was what would allow DK64 to swap with BK. However, the text ice-key is in memory with the other DK items, correct? Which tells me there was no SNS menu. So you wouldn't go to the Menu to swap, where would you go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rarenet.com
Not necessarily. Take Wave Race 64, and start a race. Then hold down the reset button and pull out the cartridge. Instead of crashing, the game continues based on the data already loaded into RAM. The reason the music begins to glitch out is because that was still being read from the cartridge. Everything else still works normally, though.
Heh, make a save state of mario 64, now load up a game other than mario64 and then load that save state. Awesome isn't it. Mario 64 can be played off of its own RAM. Similar to taking out the cartridge while holding the reset button. Strangely enough, Donkey kong 64 can do this too. So I think the games have more than enough data. Hell if the ram can hold a whole level from DK64, it can hold data to swap the games, Tooie though, I haven't been able to load up on its own save state....

Last edited by runehero123; 23rd July 2007 at 09:27 PM.


  #779  
Old 24th July 2007, 01:36 PM
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Why wont it work with Tooie? Try it with DK64. It has lots 'o RAM. Actually, I'll try it.


  #780  
Old 24th July 2007, 02:20 PM
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Runehero, I'm getting confused. Have I understood this right?

When you collect an SnS item, a value in the format XXYY is written to memory. This same memory slot is used for all SnS items, and if you collect the Pink egg and then the Ice Key, the record of the Key collection will overwrite the record of the Pink Egg (in RAM I presume, not on the cart's EEPROM (?) ). You are implying that the area of data being written to is the area of the N64's RDRAM in which a swap's transitional phases would occur. Did I get any of that right?

If all of the above is exactly what you are saying, and this data is indeed written into RAM not ROM, what happens if you reset the game? I didn't understand that bit. If you collect the Ice Key and the data is written to RAM, what happens when you reboot the N64? Does it keep writing that value to memory until the 'swap' happens, as the patent would imply?
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