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Banjo Theories & Stop 'n' Swop SNS? Bottle's Revenge? Share your thoughts on the mysteries of the Banjo series and discuss the new Stop 'n' Swop features in Nuts and Bolts and the XBLA games

 
 
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  #1  
Old 13th April 2005, 11:16 PM
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SNS: Some Answers = More Questions

This was mentioned back in February, but not much discussion was generated by it.

It looks like we finally have some answers to Rare's intentions with the SNS concept. Maybe I should post this as a follow up to my Don't Blame Rare, Blame Rambus thread.

Here is a link to Rare's US Patent application submitted June 29, 1999 and finally approved November 16, 2004.

US Patent 6,820,265

The Patent is titled System Method and Data Storage Medium for Sharing Data Between Games. It is a very dry read, but hang in there, especially for the parts about the Huge Blocked Icy Cave and the Big Icy Key.

Here are some discussion points (you may want to avoid these until you've read the Patent):


1. Rare makes specific reference to both swapping between 2 and 3 games. Interesting... BK - DK64 - BT anyone?

2. It looks like the cold swapping method is confirmed. Although hot swapping and presenting codes are mentioned, the fact that cold swapping is described in detail is fascinating.

3. The references to the Icy Cave and Key are very specific. It would tend to make one think they were designed and coded.

4. The Patent was submitted June 1999. This tends to confirm the specualtion that the SNS concept was not dropped until, at the earliest, BT's release in 2000. The submission of the Patent coincides with the infamous 1999 BT Tepid Seat Interview, in which Rare confirmed the extra hidden items in BK. If the swapping concept was dropped prior to 1999, why bother with the time and expense of preparring and submitting a patent application?

5. It may still be possible to swop from BK to DK64. They were both released prior to this Patent submission and combined that with the RWP findings, it creates an interesting possibilty. If data transfer still exists, that's the most likely place to find it. Why specifically include three game swapping in the Patent if three game swapping wasn't already completed or in the works?

Like always, some answers bring more question.

[[edit]]
I am mistaken in point 5. DK64 was not released prior to this patent submission. DK64 was released in November 1999.
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Last edited by slaphappy; 14th April 2005 at 07:57 PM.


  #2  
Old 13th April 2005, 11:35 PM
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Nice! With the patent information given, it makes your theory have credibility and truth. Hopefully this will uncover something.


  #3  
Old 14th April 2005, 02:03 PM
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What is cold swapping?

Is that taking out BK and turning the system off before putting in BT/DK64?
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  #4  
Old 14th April 2005, 03:45 PM
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Cold swapping works like this:

1. Collect some item in BK.
2. Turn off the N64.
3. Take out the BK cart.
4. Put in BT/DK64.
5. Turn on the N64.
6. BT/DK64 will check for the item.

This is a unique concept. General knowledge is that when a system is powered down, all data in RAM is lost. Rare states that data written to a certain non-volatile area of RAM can be retrieved by a 2nd program if the system is powered up fast enough.

The questions that come from this are:

Q1: At what location is the non-volatile memory?

Q2: Can Gamesharks overwrite this area of memory?

Q3: Which games check this memory? BT, DK64, or maybe some other game. And does BK check this memory as well? Possibly explaining the long initial load times for these games.
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Last edited by slaphappy; 21st April 2005 at 10:43 PM.


  #5  
Old 14th April 2005, 03:50 PM
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That is really interesting. I can't think of anything specific to raise at the moment, but as soon as others make some more comments I am sure I will.

The big ice key reference was quite specific, however there is no blocked icy cave with a keyhole in it on BK, as the key is in BK behind a ice cave, so perhaps it was refering to Dk? Where there could have been a blocked passagem therefore requiring a big ice key? Who knows.

- I have heard (from boltdragoon's site) that the memory card inserted in a controller notes the secret items are there, but can do nothing with them. Is this true ?
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Last edited by Benjo Koolzooie; 14th April 2005 at 03:53 PM.


  #6  
Old 14th April 2005, 05:17 PM
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In my opinion, the information given in the patent was considering game 1 as Banjo-Tooie and game 2 as Banjo-Kazooie. Basically, you'd come to a gateway that you can't find any way through, but a pressable switch would be nearby. On pressing this switch, the game would show a short cut-scene of Wozza's Cave, with the passage opening. Banjo-Tooie would set a value in the universal memory that Banjo-Kazooie would retrieve on boot-up. Very, very nice idea - and it looks like they had, and probably still have more ideas for how they might use Stop 'N' Swap style ideas.
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  #7  
Old 14th April 2005, 06:11 PM
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So now I am wondering why did they cancel?

Mind you, did Nintendo brand this dangerous?
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  #8  
Old 14th April 2005, 06:41 PM
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At one point, I think they did. They thought that the values left in the universal addresses could have adverse effects on other games. It's really, really, really unlikely that it would, but there you go. It was hot-swapping that Nintendo had the main problem with; but as you can see, this theory would use dry-swapping.

I think the problem was that the Nintendo 64s were upgraded around 2000, and the RAM didn't have as long a period of sustained memory after the machine was turned off as a result. So, the data would be stored, but unless you could swap cartridges in under 2 seconds on the later N64s, it'd be cleared. Thus buggerising the process.
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  #9  
Old 14th April 2005, 06:46 PM
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So, with this information is it likely that "triggers" and perhaps cut scenes (relating to to getting the SNS items in BK) could actually be non existant in the cart itself?
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  #10  
Old 14th April 2005, 06:51 PM
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I get the feeling they were already having some issues with BT (game 1) when this was submitted.

"the complexity of the first game program is increased by requiring the interaction with another game program which may in turn trigger new problems or challenges to be resolved"

An obvious fact, but why it was explicitly stated may indicate the problems had already come into play. Rare tried to deal with the problems that arose, and made the decision to drop the feature. If Nintendo had an issue with the concept itself, I think they would have put their foot down early in the development cycle, ie prior to BK.
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  #11  
Old 14th April 2005, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slaphappy
I get the feeling they were already having some issues with BT (game 1) when this was submitted.

"the complexity of the first game program is increased by requiring the interaction with another game program which may in turn trigger new problems or challenges to be resolved"
I think that was a reference to the gameplay rather than the coding of the game. The gameplay would become more complex and interesting because of all of this swapping, things that would trigger previously inaccessable challenges and puzzles, things that mightn't even have been in the game's code before the swap. I'm probably wrong, though.
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  #12  
Old 14th April 2005, 07:15 PM
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Yes, the cutscenes would be on BT. It would work something like this:

Play some sequence of songs on the jukebox.
Talk to Blackeye and he grumbles something.
Cutscene of Sharkfood Island rising is shown.
Info is written to the non-volatile memory.
Turn off N64, take BT out.
BK put in, N64 powered up.
BK checks the memory and finds the item.
Sharkfood Island is risen and egg is accessible.


As for the added complexity of the games, absolutely. I don't think you are wrong at all. Imagine my scenario above. You get Sharkfood Island to rise in BT and put in BK. Sharkfood Island is risen. Does it stay available forever now? Or do I have to trigger the sequence every time I want to access the area. It would make more sense, and almost be necessary to make it available forever once it is uncovered. This may have something to do with why it was necessary for the SNS items to written to all 3 game saves. The complexity and combinations become very hard to manage very quickly.
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Last edited by slaphappy; 21st April 2005 at 10:44 PM.


  #13  
Old 15th April 2005, 03:43 AM
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Probably what would happen is that you would get a sadncastle code from BT and enter it in BK. When you got the items, it would most likely affect what happened in BT. (alternate endings, beginnings, transformations, etc.) After all, why would the Sandcastle codes be there in the first place?


  #14  
Old 15th April 2005, 03:53 AM
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Simple. Debug Menu. I think that it might be possible to do anything with the sandcastle floor. I mean, almost all games have a debug menu. They usually cut it off from outside interaction. (Look at MK4) But if you knew the address you were looking for, it would be really easy to slip in and change stuff. I don't quite understand why programmers put in debug menus, but I think that we should have a closer look at the sandcastle floor for that Cut-Scene modifier. And that was my two cents on this matter.
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  #15  
Old 15th April 2005, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slaphappy
Yes, the cutscenes would be on BT. It would work something like this:
You get Sharkfood Island to rise in BT and put in BK. Sharkfood Island is risen. Does it stay available forever now? Or do I have to trigger the sequence every time I want to access the area. It would make more sense, and almost be necessary to make it available forever once it is uncovered. This may have something to do with why it was necessary for the SNS items to written to all 3 game saves. The complexity and combinations become very hard to manage very quickly.

Yes, perhaps that is why the SNS items remain stuck on the cartidge once colletcted?
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